Pakistan’s JF-17 V/S India’s LCA-Tejas; Comparison With Latest Figures

The major rival brothers in the world, who have been fighting against each other since their birth, used to fight with foreign weapons earlier, but now they want to fight in a new style, that is with their indigenous weapons.

Pakistan, as a member of US led military pact CENTO and SEATO, started receiving high tech weapons of that time with money to keep an eye on India and launch an assault when needed. Seeing this, India began to import weapons from Soviet Union and started upgrading its force. Both the countries started filling up their inventory at the same time and today both are facing the problems of their ageing fighters aircrafts.

Highlights: LCA Tejas Inducted; Kaveri Prevented it from Completely Indigenous

India is in urgent need of replacing its ageing MiG 21 whereas Pakistan is in need of replacing its ageing Nanchang A-5 bombers, Chengdu F-7 interceptors and Mirage III/5 fighters.

India decided to start a project of making an indigenous fighter aircraft that can serve in all purposes of the air force, whereas Pakistan joined later an already going on Chinese project of development of a fighter aircraft.

Both India and Pakistan claim their aircraft as indigenous, but as on April 13, 2011 none of the aircraft is 100% indigenous as India is using american GE engine to power the fighter and Pakistan is using almost all the technology from China and engine from Russia in their version of the fighter.

It is believed that when India will complete its Kaveri engine project which was supposed to power LCA earlier, then LCA can be proudly claimed by Indians as an indigenous aircraft. India couldn’t use indigenous engine in the prototype of LCA due to a delay caused by technical difficulties in the development of the engine.

If India completes the engine, it will become the fifth country after US, UK, Russia and France who can make their own engine.

Today both LCA and JF-17 are reality and not on papers anymore. Tejas was inducted on 11 Jan, 2011 whereas JF-17 was inducted last year in Pakistani air force.

Both Indians and Pakistani have already started loving their new weapon, but in this new love they commit a mistake of comparing these two planes with each other. JF-17 will be Pakistan’s main fighter accompanied by their upgraded F-16s, whereas LCA Tejas will be India’s additional aircraft for medium role combat missions after Indo-Russian 5th generation fighter aircraft PAK-FA, Under-development indigenous 5th Gen AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft), Indo Russian 4.5 Gen Su-30MKI and to-be-inducted 126 4.5 Gen MRCA Dassualt Rafael (Multi Role Combat Aircraft).

While Pakistan and China claim there aircraft as indigenous and result of 50-50 partnership between China and Pakistan, there are lot of foreign companies and organizations involved in making it a success.

After the U.S and European companies cancelled their participation in the development of the westernized Chengdu J-7 variant known as Super 7 which is openly based on MiG 21 design, China launched a program to develop an indigenous evolution of this Mig 21 based design. which was named as FC -1 (Fighter China 1)

To expedite its development, in 1998, China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) purchased the abandoned Mikoyan MAPO Izd 33 design, research and test information and data along with other research and technical assistance which was developed under Project 33. This doesn’t mean that the design was now based on Mig 33 or that FC – 1 is the continuation of Soviet Project 33. The Project 33 started in 1980 and was stopped in 1986 taking the note of changing Soviet Union’s Air Force’s demands. Though later the improved version of the same design was introduced at the 1994 Farnborough Air Show as the briefly used marketing name for the MiG-29ME export model of the MiG-29M.

Although engineers from the Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group (MASPG) have provided technical, research and design assistance on the FC-1 project, its aerodynamic design is quite different from that of Project 33. The wings are attached at mid-fuselage on the FC-1, whereas the Izd 33 is a low-wing design. The FC-1’s platform resembles that of the F-16, while that of the Izd 33 is similar to the MiG-29. The FC-1’s inlets are ‘D’-shaped and angled, but those for the Izd 33 are rectangular and slab-sided. Given the FC-1’s heritage of the ‘Super 7′, J-7, and MiG-21, some analysts believe that the FC-1’s internal structure is more likely based on the MiG-21 than on the Izd 33, which some have called a “single-engine MiG-29”.

Looking at the pictures one may say that the JF-17 Plane uses Soviet era’s MiG 21 airframe which is highly debatable. Although avionics and other basic things are superior in JF-17 than MiG 21.

In October 1995 Pakistan was asked to select a Western company before the end of the year which would provide and integrate the avionics in FC-1 for them (Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1995/10/18/21419/pakistan-nears-fc-1-avionics-decision.html).

Avionics suites were being proposed by FIAR and Thomson-CSF, based on the Grifo S7 and RC400 radars respectively (source: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1999/07/14/53912/china-and-pakistan-agree-on-super-7-fighter-development.html).

Russia’s Klimov offered a variant of the RD-33 turbofan engine to power the fighter. Russia earlier had denied China from transferring the engine to Pakistan as it was against Russian policy and India’s interest, but later, for some reason, Russia had no issue in China supplying those engines to Pakistan. To international media they replied in diplomatic parlance, Chinese were in such a hurry that they had not heard the last word from Russia on this subject. It is believed that Pakistan is unsatisfied with the engine and a new deal for a different engine, most probably to have Snecma M53-P2 could be finalized.

Rather than using the Ada programming language, which is developed dedicated for military applications, the software for the aircraft is written using the popular civilian C++ programming language which students use to develop programs in high schools, this might give an edge to Pakistan where software industry is not very skilled and C++ resources can be easily trained in large numbers (source: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/stuck-in-sichuan-pakistani-jf17-program-grounded-02984/).

In India’s LCA case: Airframe, Radar, Avionics, Cockpit, landing Gear, Ejection System, Flight Simulator, Software, Propulsion (when Kaveri will come) all are home made.

The pictures below are posted so people can compare JF 17 design with MiG 21 and MiG 29.

jf-17
JF-17
mig 21
MiG 21
mig 29
MiG 29

Comparison According to 2008 Aviation Source Book, Aviation Week & Space Technology, January 28, 2008 and DRDO TechFocus February 2011″. DRDO. February 2011. Retrieved 9 April 2011.

Now among these two aircrafts it is very difficult to comment which one is better, as these aircrafts don’t belong to the same category. In terms of development, India’s LCA offers something new to the world, new design, new weapons, new systems and, in future, a new engine. While LCA was never made to be India’s Sukhoi but it does gives the platform to India for further modification and development of new projects Whereas Pakistan’s JF-17 is a modification of  many previous technologies.

LCA program was started in 1983, whereas JF-17 program was started in 1989 as Chengdu F-7, which was later changed to Fighter China project in 1991. In 1995 Pakistan reportedly joined the project.

Though China has kept development and production of JF-17 on for delivering them to Pakistan and my be to other countries, it prefers J-10 fighters over JF-17 for its own airforce.

Both  LCA and JF-17 are 4th generation fighter aircraft, but advanced composite frames and high tech electronics/avionics made international expert call LCA-Tejas a 4.5 Gen aircraft during Aero India 2010, in Bangalore.

While JF-17s are very much needed to serve depleting Pakistani Air Force as a main fighter along with F-16s, LCA is mainly a research project India has carried through these years. LCA was never made to compare with Sukhois, but it has faired very well on international level and now India has a platform and can develop more aircrafts on this platform as the plan of AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, an indigenous 5th gen stealth fighter) has already been cleared by the government.

While India has achieved self reliance in Air Fighter technology, Pakistan has achieved an experience of working in joint venture. It is the first major project of Pakistan with an international joint venture. India has previously worked with Russia in a partnership on development of world’s only supersonic cruise missile, Brahmos. Presently, India and Russia are also working on the development of 5th generation fighter aircraft PAK-FA, in a move to regain the air dominance which was taken over by the americans with their 5th gen F-22 which outsmarted Sukhoi 30 MKI, also a product of Indo-Russian partnership. India and France are also working on Surface to Air Missile “Maitri” project.

A Little bit of Fun and Sarcasm

“JF-17 Not as advanced as LCA: Nawaz Sharif, Former Prime Minister of Pakistan”(jpeg)

“I have heard it is very advanced plane, but it is not ready yet.” said Nawaz Sharif to retired Air Commodre Pervez Khokhar. Praising the JF-17 without mentioning Chinese cooperation, he further added in light mood, “I am saying you buy this plane from us, though it is not as advanced as your LCA, but it also has a glass cockpit like yours and can drop bombs for you,” he said in sarcastic mood.

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Sanskar Shrivastava is the founder of international students' journal, The World Reporter. Passionate about dynamic occurrence in geopolitics, Sanskar has been studying and analyzing geopolitcal events from early life. At present, Sanskar is a student at the Russian Centre of Science and Culture and will be moving to Duke University.
  • Anonymous

    pakistani bastards

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/07224408075502986348 Ghufran Ali Quresh

    LOL at nawaz sharif . poor fellow doesnt know what hes talking abt. apart from that, its a well researched and balanced comparison .

  • Anonymous

    You indian bastards go get some “G’s” and add it in your LCA cuz our K-8 could easily fuck your LCA in 6 G

    • KSHITIJ

      why pakistan always want to fight with india in any manner.why dont they see because of this hatred where they have reached.the most basic difference between there aircrafts and us is that we are now becoming independent but pakistan is still dependent on other contries for their fighter jets SIMPLE

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Anonymous

    JF-17 has G limit of +8.5, whereas LCA has G limit of +9 to -3.5. So, The G limit range of LCA is more, it should perform better than JF-17 in this category.

  • PAKISTANI

    LE MEILLEUR RESULTA DE JF-17
    SERA LE JOUR J SI IL Y A UN JOUR J

  • Anonymous

    Wrong G limit in LCA. Its 6.5 and also payload is much less

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Anonymous

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/lca-specs.htm

    LCA G limit is +9 to -3.5 like i said before, read globalsecurity.org for facts.

  • Anonymous

    @Anonymous
    YOU AND YOUR ALL GENERATIONS…IN EVERY ERA OF LIFE TIME..fuck of

  • http://www.jf-17.com/ JF-17

    There are some serious errors in the article.

    For e.g. JF-17 airframe is NOT based on Mig-21.

    LCA’s radar and avionics are being made in collaboration with Israel.

    Pls post accurate information. For JF-17, you can refer to sites like e.g. http://www.jf-17.com

    For Tejas, I’m sure there are some good sites as well.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @JF-17

    That’s why the team has put the image of Mig 21, Mig 29 and JF-17 so that people can see Jf-17 resembles to which airframe. It is clear from the photo that jf-17 doesn’t look anyway close at all to mig 29 as claimed by many. It is based on the Mig 21 airframe.

    Mig 21 airframe is not bad at all, it is simple, and light.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @JF-17

    The work on Radar and Avionics of LCA is almost done by DRDO and HAL, for time being LCA is using Radar and some part of the avionics made in collaboration with Israel and France

  • Anonymous

    india and paskistan shld be frnds.. indian shld help us..

  • Anonymous

    are u russia. how come u know that much about lca

  • Anonymous

    Within their budgets both are good aircrafts.
    The delta wing design makes LCA a good interceptor with better thrust of 100KN with its new GE414INS6 engine.

    The design of JF17 makes it a good bombing jet.How ever it lacks thrust to escape faster and more sophisticated jets once inside enemy territory.

    So the role of LCA is defensive in which it will be a good platform and that of JF17 is offensive but will need escort of F16s desperately.

    If you guys are visualising a dogfight between these two then in BVR mode LCA will kill the JF17. In dogfight the winner will still be LCA as it has R73 which is far more capable missile than anuthing in PAF inventory.

  • Anonymous

    Very Good Article and Comments..

  • Anonymous

    nice maintaining a neutral n fact report on both side of warring countries. That’s what a news reporter should. My love to you ‘Svetlana Petrova’

  • Anonymous

    To be candid – j17 benefits from plenty of inputs to the airframe and was originally a mig version of an improved mig 21 which itself is an exceptional interceptor. Hence – it certainly is a capable plane

    on the other hand – lca is very new as a design and MAY have great potential as it evolves. It isalso building the design to deploy capabilities of ADA which is great

    i think a better comparison of jt ventures would be su 30mki with j17 from a point of view of involvement. Lca is several leagues ahead in self development – something which cannot be switched or jammed by kill switches during raids. .

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Anonymous

    Yes I am Russian, but stay at TWR office in Delhi and Romania. And I have done a quite lot of research on these planes.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Anonymous

    Thanks for all your love, With your love only we are able to be here. Help us maintain neutrality on others articles on TWR as well :)

    You guys can stay in touch with me on Facebook as well as on Twitter

    http://www.facebook.com/TheWorldReporter

    http://www.twitter.com/TWRnews

    And i would request you all to not to post comments as anonymous, use gmail Id or atleast use your name so that i can address you well :)

  • Abdul Moiz

    i m neutral bt wat is taking so long for iaf to give combat clearance ti tejas. no doubt it might be better than thunder bt wat paf is genius. they r nt trying to make amr erfect in one go. they av divided the prjct in steps and r not wasting money like the indians did on tejas. frm 1983 uptil nw if india could only cme out wid tejas then i wud nt call it a success.

  • Abdul Moiz

    *i m neutral bt wat is taking so long for iaf to give combat clearance ti tejas. no doubt it might be better than thunder bt wat paf is doing genius. they r nt trying to make mr perfect in one go. they av divided the prjct in steps and r not wasting money like the indians did on tejas. frm 1983 uptil nw if india could only cme out wid tejas then i wud nt call it a success.

  • http://www.jf-17.com/ FC-1

    @Svet:

    Do you honestly believe the JF-17 and Mig-21 airframes look alike?

    Just trying to gauge your knowledge ;)

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02135133140663569123 adhee

    nice genuine article …. hope he could have added more details on radar and weapons used on this planes…

  • Anonymous

    i must say that svetlana petrova is one of the most neutral word voice i have ever read onthis topic anywhere on the internet and that is something. truly appreciate it

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/14725446832416734265 dexter
  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Abdul Moiz

    I understand your very good question. Pakistan is in urgent need to improve the quality and quantity of the fleets in its Air Force, and so do India. But Indians have a huge fleet of Sukhoi, various MiGs, MIrage and Jaguar and is going to order 126 MRCA as well. So India is not in a hurry to get LCA developed. India doesn’t see LCA as a premium fighter in its Air Force but sees it as a research project which has helped them in developing indigenous technology which will be proved of great use while developing stealth advanced medium combat aircraft. Another thing which is responsible for the delays in the project is the slow government processes in India.

    One more thing I would like to answer is that LCA has been inducted in IAF

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @FC-1

    JF-17 Airframe is advanced development of Mig 21 airframe. It is also known before Pakistan’s involvement in the project China was using airframe very close to Mig 21, though it was exact Mig 21 airframe, I wouldn’t like to say that. Now we can see it is little bit modified and advanced. But it is still inherited from the same source :)

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @adhee

    I noticed the same, thanks for requesting, would ask the TWR team to do necessary updates in the article :)

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Anonymous

    Thanks, your love is what which keeps me coming back and reply to your intellectual comments. I myself find this place very interesting. And I love to reply to each as much as possible :)

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @dexter

    Thanks for your appreciation, today there is nothing where women are not there. I am glad that you took my example here. You can join me on facebook or Twitter. I would hardly prefer to move from here and join email conversation, thanks :)

    http://www.facebook.com/TheWorldReporter

    http://www.twitter.com/TWRnews

  • Anonymous

    BOTH THESE AIRCRAFT CANT BE COMPARED DIRECTLY AS THEY PERFORM DIFFERNT ROLES IN EACH OF THE AIRFORCES… the role of the jf17 is performed by the mki in the iaf… and the GTX kaveri engine is not yet ready to be used …. soo the actual performance f the lca is not accurately known… and i hav no doubt that the jf is a good aircraft

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Anonymous

    Ofcourse JF-17 is a good aircraft, and as the author said in the article we agree that LCA and JF-17 cannot be compared since they belong to different roles. MKI is the mani fighter in IAF. To match it PAF will have to use both F-16 and JF=17.

    GTX Kaveri is not ready to be used, so the comparison which we made were using the GE engine. So there is no point of talking about that now. When Kaveri will be ready, we will update the comparison.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13613210374455265592 shadownithin

    both aircrafts better in their ownways… jf is striker aircraft and LCA(tejas) is defensive aircraft…but looking at G’s and delta wing LCA would definitly win in a dog fight….

  • Abdul Moiz

    @the reporter
    lca is only inducted in iaf;it ISN’T combat ready yet;fc-1’s status is ahead of it.secondly the type of delays india is putting in mrca is also raising various doubts about india’s own plan to buy 126 fighters.financial constraints etc.
    mrca was actually launched cuz indian think tanks knew that they wre going nowhere wid lca….

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/08834832296834095341 Khare A

    NICE TO READ

    THNX ALOT

  • Sagam Prakash

    Tejas is ahead of JF-17 when it comes to turn rate, maneuverability etc but where Tejas really pulls ahead of JF-17 is its cutting edge avionics, electronics, Fully digital FBW (JF-17 has only on pitch axis), very high carbon composites design (JF-17 is all metal) and radar absorbent materials. Jf-17’s all metal airframe is an thing of past as world has long ago moved on to composites.

  • Johann Friedrich Reichardt

    Some people try to hide shortcomings of Jf-17 by saying that it is ‘Very Cheap’ while Tejas is ‘Very Expensive’. But the truth is that Tejas costs $31 million while Jf-17 costs $25 million(Source Paks No# 1 Newspaper ‘Dawn’). When we look at the fact that Tejas is way ahead of Jf-17 in avionics and design this difference seems even smaller. Tejas is not only better but actually cheaper if you take into account high quality composites, avionics, airframe used in Tejas.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Abdul Moiz

    LCA is induscted in Indian Air Force that means it is combat ready. its squadron has been cleared and are ready to serve the force.

    It’s true that staus of FC-1 is ahead of it. True that there are several delays in LCA program, now LCA is inducted with american engine so it is independent of the delay in the development of the Kaveri Engine.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Khare A

    I am glad :)

  • Abdul Moiz

    I am aware that block-I of thunders are all too convential (all metal,not full fly by wire controls etc) but these babies are just a tip of the ice berg.Future models will incorporate FA-18 equivalent specs as Pakistan is moving slowly towards indeginization.
    @ the reporter
    Induction dosnt means they can drop bombs on hostile targets. LCA will be combat ready by 2012.
    BTW can ny1 tell me the true status of MRCA? PS it is also getting delays like LCA…

  • William Rod.

    “Future models of Jf-17 will incorporate FA-18 equivalent specs”
    Hahahahahahaha
    hahahahahahaha
    hahahahahahaha
    hahahahahahaha
    hahahahahahaha
    Who told you that? Madarsa Daily?
    Junk Fighter-17 is an cheap mass produced fighter for exporting to third world countries. If it had the potential to match F-18 then why Chinese are using J-10 which is roughly equal to old versions of F-16? Perhaps Chinese are ignorant of massive advances your Pakistani engineers have made. Go and tell them, I am sure they will be just as amused as we are.

  • Wallowitz

    @Abdul Moziz said “Future models will incorporate FA-18 equivalent specs”
    Are you kidding me?
    Jf-17 is built in an aging airframe so unless you change everything from scratch it can never hope to match Tejas let alone FA/18. The fact stays that Jf-17 is an soviet era fighter comparable to Mig-21 at most. Even this may be an rosy comparison as China uses 700 Mig-21 but not an single Jf-17 despite Jf-17’s low price.

  • Abdul Moiz

    Dude changing 700 planes by just thrrowing them away and bringing in the new ones is not that simple
    Do you think that Turkey and Egypt have desired for the current block of JF-17s. No. The talks were for the future hi tech models….most probably block-III,cuz they too are annoyd by US strings on its hardware.
    As far as J-10s are cncrned China can afford their numbers,Pakistan can’t so its going easily step by step by step.
    Making Tejas all by its own doesn’t mean that its way more advanced(as portrayed by the reporter).No doubt it is but not by ages but just by certain aspects. Again Pakistan is moving slowly to cop up with that, as the current models of jf-17 are basically for evaluation in the real world of combat

  • Pragyan Yadav

    One shouldn’t expect others to take future planned projects seriously. Reason for this is simple: Other airforces too are upgrading themselves eg In this article Tejas Mk-1 is used for comparison with Jf-17 Thunder. Now if we were to take an planned upgrade of Jf-17, though I don’t agree Jf-17 can become equivalent to Fa-18, but lets say it is upgraded then a plethora of new questions will be added (eg Price) to equation. Also by the time that happens Tejas Mark-II would be definitely out and perhaps Mark-III. Thus, we must focus on things as they are today, when the future models arrive we can have another comparison.

  • Damodar Rai

    I agree with @Pragyan. If Chinese Jf-17 are going to be upgraded then so is the Tejas. Tejas Mk-II is already underway.
    Also Tejas, even Mk-I, has an amazingly low RCS of just 1.5 m2 (almost equal to Eurofighter Typhoon’s RCS) while Jf-17 has an RCS of 5 m2. Result? Tejas is much more harder to detect and target.
    Tejas has capability to carry more than Jf-17. Tejas has 8 hardpoints and 3 air to air BVR weapons JF-17 has 7 hardpoints and 1 BVR weapon.
    To make an long story short, Tejas is definitely far ahead.

  • Abdul Moiz

    If tejas is soooo good, why arnt there any cnfmd orders for it

  • Ali

    @Abdul Moiz

    There is nothing to be offended. Everybody says their plane is best. Whats best for us is a plane that suits our needs. I am sure tejas is based on same philosophy also.

    Lets talk of peace, trade, conflict resolution!

  • Abdul Moiz

    @ALI…. very correct.own requirements are the first priorities.
    But, apart from being over optimist, do you really think there would ever be peace in the sub continent. Ive got stats and clear indicators that there never will be.
    Thats the practical policy of PAF. Secondly Tejas isn’t even combat proven. Not even in Kashmir where the Indians have a remote oppurtunity to use them against so called “terrorists.” Reason being its not ready yet. So why is every1 comparing JF17 with it when tejas is not even combat cleared by the IAF (every1 should get themselves clear abt it(even the reporter)). JF17 has flown many heavy sorties ,especially in WANA where they hav been actively using against the miscreants(not the taliban). Apart from these JF17s have also participated in various excercises as well. So by the time Tejas is both, combat cleared and proven, we might be seeing block-2 or 3 JF17.
    comments are welcomed

  • Ali

    True! We know our capabilities. We do have a terrific evolutionary doctrine and therefore we introduce our hardware faster. What I pointed was that does it matter what others think of something. I am pretty confident our forces know what they are doing.

    May we all live in peace. Ameen!

  • Akhand Pratap Veer

    @Abdul Actually it reflects really badly on Jf-17 if it cant even match an IOC aircraft. Tejas is simply made of high tech components and airframe. Its palne and simple fact.
    And about orders-India has ordered 50 mark-I Tejas. The contract has already been signed. 150 Mk-II contract is already in pipeline in addition to 50 naval.
    And finally, about constant banter about time took to complete design. The Jf-17 (originally called project-7) was launched in 1989. Tejas project was launched in 1983. India has to develop it alone and despite an embargo. India’s project was left stuck in middle after embargo as it was planned to use western tech. India then develop those on its own. And I would like to end with one simple question – Will it help in combat to say that an particular plane took longer to develop? Has there been some new development in missile technology which states that planes that are older are superior to newer planes? And effectiveness depends on induction date?

  • Anonymous

    Just like LCA, JF-17 isn’t war ready machine. its just inducted in PAF, doesnt mean it can fire weapons still.PAF still has to do the weapon integration in this aircraft. to a certain extent that weapon integration seems to have been done with LCA.The problem with LCA is thrust. As compared to original design the thrust is comparatively less. besides PAF is in lookout for a western avionic supplier, now this is a complex process, integration of Chinese weapons with Western Avionics is not going to be a simple job.Though Chinese will readily supply the source codes.India doesn’t face the same issue to a certain extent because weapon integration is already under way.LCA has not received FOC because of its limited AOA.its not the JF 17 quality that will worry India, its the quantity thats certainly a big worry.JF-17 is a real force multiplier for PAF without no doubt.

  • Anonymous

    LCA have same frame as Mirage So as per Indian theory LCA=Mirage

    SU35 have same frame as SU27 So as per Indian theory SU35=SU27

    F16 A/B have same frame as F16 E/F So as per Indian theory F16 A/B =F16 E/F

    WOW ……………………

    Congrates you rediscover wheel

  • Anonymous

    JF 17 is for defence purpose so we don’t need composite material badly. Please tell me What is a use of composite if LCA can’t even pull +8.5g of non composite fighter?

  • Anonymous

    All this article say when LCA have or when we installed. I asked one question did Pakistan Cap JF17 development?

  • Anonymous

    By the time LCA enter into service JF17 second block will enter in PAF i.e next year 2012

  • Anonymous

    @Johann Friedrich Reichardt

    That is a price tag for JF17 II

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Abdul Moiz If tejas is soooo good, why arnt there any cnfmd orders for it”

    India will use Tejas for its own force until Kaveri engine is not fully developed.. so till then neither India nor other countries owuld look for making a deal

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Ali
    “There is nothing to be offended. Everybody says their plane is best. Whats best for us is a plane that suits our needs. I am sure tejas is based on same philosophy also.

    Lets talk of peace, trade, conflict resolution!”

    I am glad you have a revolutionary thinking.. Like we said in the article.. Both the planes are first of a kind in their respective countries.. thats why people love it.. but in this love they do mistake of comparing these aircraft which are not made for the same purpose.

    We ourselves maintain our stand that these planes are not comparable coz of their different role and different doomain, but still the discussion is going on for those who think it can be compared.. and there is nothing wrong in that..

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    While tejas is lagging because of the delay in the development of the Kaveri engine, the changes required to make a further advanced version Mark II has already been identified and cleared and the work is already going on, it is believed Mark II will come much early

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Anonymous
    “LCA have same frame as Mirage So as per Indian theory LCA=Mirage”

    I agree LCA looks somewhat like Mirage, that is because of the delta wing configuration.. But LCA airframe isnt based on Mirage airframe..

    The LCA has an airframe made mostly of composite materials. The F-16 and the Mirage 2000-5 have airframe made from aluminum-lithium alloys and titanium. The Mirage 2000-5 and the LCA are tailless deltawings.

    Mirage 2000-5 require long, paved airways, the LCA has been designed specifically for operation in unpaved roads, and has short takeoff and landing capability.

    so there is some difference, LCA is not equal to mirage.. Making a composite airframe involves a totally different approach in construction and designing.. Final outcome may be similar in look but what all technology are involved can not be matched or replaced with the technology involved in the development of a metallic alloy frames

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    I am glad we have some intelligent, intellectual and smart people on the discussion board, not like any other Indian Pakistani forum on the net where people use abusive words..

    I understand some of you have more knowledge than me.. and I totally respect that.. I am also discussing only what I know..

  • Anonymous

    As regards to Why tejas has not been inducted by IAF, there r various reasons for this questions. We need to understand IAF operates separately from HAL/ADA the prime integrator of the LCA. IAF follows certain standards which needs to be met.Now if you see there has been no FOC because the AOA needs to be at 21 degrees, this is a very complex detail, for this there needs to be an improved and standby FCS operating as a backup for the main FCS system.Second the thrust isnt yet sufficient to extract the maximum G’s from the airframe. Now if we go to compare these details we need to understand we no have clue from PAF whether they have met these requirements, actually whether they have these requirements in the first place. LCA is far ahead in terms of weapon integration,its even ready and capable of deploying bombs because Rafael pod has already been integrated. Regrading conformed orders, F414 will power the next 100 Tejas or so, so there r already orders placed,i dont knw why people compare the airctaft in terms of induction in the air force, simply even when we know there is still no weapon integration on JF-17, whether first block second or third, JF17 is still not weaponised. there is still no point is sayin LCA or jF17 is better simply on the bases of induction, likewise India can claim Tejas is better then Eurofighter?? bec the rafael pod is yet not integrated on it and ot lacks ground attack capability?, plz compare the aircraft by its strengths and weaknesses.

  • Anonymous

    can belive indo-pak war broke out on neutral turf….thy can’t see 3rd person effort…..

    ameen allah bring peace to jf 17… paki suckers

  • Trijya Manas

    #1- LCA Tejas has an unique airframe. It is the WORLD’S FIRST airplane to have fins out of same shaft. Its wing design, honeycomb, vortex control is universally regarded as original.

    #2- Tejas has tolerance of +9g which has been tested and verified. While JF-17’s G limit is claimed to be 8.5 but chinese themselve showed that JF-17 is capable of only 8g. PAF says that it will achieve 8.5 by removing limits but this is extremely dangerous as these limits are imposed after very detailed studies. Modifying software to 8.5 g may result in breakdown of airframe. Even if it somehow manages to be capable of 8.5g it will still be behind Tejas’ 9g.

    #3- Composites are globally recognized as indispensable. No modern plane is without composites. Calling that Jf-17 is for ‘defense’ is an bad joke as even defensive aircrafts will have to engage in battle. Unless ofcourse PAF wants to keep them in hangar. On the other hand Tejas has more than 45% composites by weight making it more reliable and capable and also compliments planes stealth.

    #4- Things like Full Fly by Wire relaxed stability, more resilient airframe, more hardpoints, more carrying capacity are all in favor of Tejas.

    I encourage readers to go to Wikipedia and see Tejas and Jf-17 data. Tejas is ahead in virtually everything (like load,missiles,BVR) and miles ahead in technical aspects. I say again, see for yourself!

  • Abdul Moiz

    As a force multiplier some 250 jf-17s are the only option Pak has. bcuz they r nt merely being inducted to replace the oldies. Its true no other plane in indo-pak can match the sukhois. so to counter those you need to need to have atleast 2:1 ratio against them bcuz when the sukhois perform those micro angle super maneuvers then they also sacrifice their speed and that is the only tym wen the oponent has the chance…..this is paf’s way to counter the su30s;atleast as for now!

  • Aniketan Prabhakar

    @Abdul Yeah Australian defense review was afraid of Su-30 Mki and called it better than FA-18 even though Australia uses FA-18! Coupled with K-100 Air to Air missile (range 200-400 Km!!!) it can take enemy assets down with ease.
    And I want to talk about one more thing. Some people are heavily criticizing India for long time taken to develop Tejas an project which was started in 1984. Well guess what China started Z-10 Helicopter project in 1979 and that still in Prototype phase! China has been ‘developing’ Z-10 for 32 years and still are stuck on engine. India made LCH attack helicopter within 5 years. Yes just 5 years and its prototypes are already enormously successful.
    India’s has similar performance to China’s Z-10 and weights almost half. And caries same amount of Anti Tank Missiles (8). Yep, Chinese Z-10 weights twice but can carry same amount as Indias much lighter LCH. Also, despite being lighter LCH carries more than Z-10.
    No wonder India has already ordered (114+65 ie 180) LCH and Sri Lanka has placed order to buy 20 LCH.

  • Abdul Moiz

    only 5 years bcuz its a cc of the russian HINDs India has. P

  • Gurumanthan

    @Abdul You have absolutely no idea.
    India’s LCH is an helicopter with Empty weight 2550 kg, Max takeoff 5700 kg and Useful load of 2950 kg.
    While Russia’s Hind has Empty weight 8,500 kg, Max takeoff weight 12,000 kg and useful load 3500 kg.
    So Russian helicopter is more than three times the weight of India’s LCH. Wake up and smell the coffee.

  • Anonymous

    Hi Svetlana Petrova
    It is very nice and neutral analysis . First time had clear view of both planes . Mark II version going to be wonderful .
    I curious to know that what is the results of tests during May and June ? These tests which are going on will allow to fine tune the engine hence it can raise its thrust . May find out the deficiencies of the parts and improvement those may increase the efficiency and thrust . Some good suggestion to engine then it is going to be wonderful .
    If it happens some changes in Kambini core engine as per suggestion of tests, may increase the thrust .
    I am doctor with keen interest in Kaveri development. I am visiting Delhi which is my residence in 2nd week of June as I am based in Saudi & may I have some detail discussion if possible .
    Chandra

  • Abdul Moiz

    just a query…..is cobra maneuver effective against missiles??

  • Anonymous

    in thoery it should be,difficult to predict in battle.

  • Anonymous

    The sad fact is that once the Su’s come out to play..you can kiss all your flying trash goodbye..heck,maybe get a good deal from your local scrap dealer :)

  • Anonymous

    start transmission..The Joint Bandar 17(or whatever the hell it’s called)is gonna be target practice for the Su’s once they switch to BVR mode..all gone in a hail of BVRAAM’s..end transmission

  • Vyutpati

    @Anon No one is denying that Su-30 Mki without AESA are lethal and with AESA just pure deadly. Another good thing is the news that 240 Fifth gen fighters will be inducted before 2017.
    But this is about Tejas Mk-I vs Jf-17, so lets try to keep on topic.

  • Anonymous

    there are a lot of errors as far as jf 17 is concerned as i have flown it dont kno much about lca though airframe of jf 17 neither resembles mig 21 nor mig 29 and i cant help laughing on that comment of nawaz sharif ask nawaz sharif what is a g and he wont be able to tell you and we took down eurofighters with f 16s block 15 in anatolian eagle and jf is better than f 16 block 15 in many regards specially for the pilots so we are more than happy with jf 17 and sd 10 lets hope we can face this lca sometime so we ll see how is the comparison mr Sanskar Shrivastava and global security.com is no authority lets see it in some foreign exercises atleast if we could

  • Anonymous

    someone said something about weapon integration hehehe just i can laugh on this comment and someone is comparing jf 17 with su 30 a 12 million aircraft to 50 + million lets pitch block 52+ with apg v(9) infront of three times crossection su 30 and amram infront of r 77 i guess then we will see

  • Anonymous

    o my god i am debating on a forum where people know hoods about aircraft my fault sorry and the journalist is too baised anyway please first convince IAF hehehehehe they have given it initial operational clearance after what ask pv naik in isolation

  • Anonymous

    sorry for intervention but i cant help myself yar kuch khuda ka khauf karo we have fired pgms and we have even fired cruise missile from jf (wpn integration) and yar someone send this graffiti to sir latif paracha i have lost contact with him otherwise i would have send it myself and for su 30s performance in red flag read comments of USAF colonel, Corkey Fornoff i wish i would have been there myself

  • Anonymous

    sorry for interference but i cant help myself for one last comment yar kuch khuda ka khauf karo we have fired pgms and we have even fired cruise missile from jf (wpn integration) and someone please send this graffiti to sir latif paracha as i dont have contact with him nowadays

  • Anonymous

    and for su 30s performance in red flag read Colonel Fornof’s comments i wish i would have been there

  • Anonymous

    I read about red flag and found this-
    When questioned on the capabilities of IAF pilots, Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader made the following remarks: – “What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is, the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home. Indian hospitality from everyone has been truly overwhelming. The greatest compliment we heard from an IAF pilot, ‘You American pilots are just like us, simply down to earth people.’ We depart India with great respect for the Indian Air Force. Your pilots, maint and support crew are exceptional professionals.

  • Anonymous

    @Anon 3:48 7 Jul. Su-30 DOESN’T cost $50 mil it costs $35.9 mil.
    Jf-17 DOESN’T cost $12 mil it costs $20-25 mil.
    So Su-30= $35.9 mil, JF-17 = $20mil (totally crappy version) – $25 mil (slightly less crappy version).
    And remember Su-30 is wayyyy farrrr ahead in combat capabilities.

  • Anonymous

    Tejas is far ahead of Jf-17 and gap grows bigger. Today both use 85 kn engine. The planned upgrade of Jf-17 Block-II will use an 100 kn engine while Tejas mk-II will use an 120 kn engine!
    Ofcourse now our Paki friends will claim that they dont need thrust or cutting edge avionics or multiple BVR missiles and they can fly planes and Shoot down F-22. I am not kidding, there are plenty of Pakistani Forums where they claim that Jf-17 can shoot down F-22. ROFLMAO!

  • Chanakya

    @Anon Yeah LOLing at F-22 vs Jf-17. Let them daydream :) They always underestimate other armies especially India. Pakistanis were involved in brutal murders of people of bangladesh and when mass killing of innocent people continued India decided to give the shelter to people fleeing from murderers. But somehow Pakistan got pissed off by this and attacked India. They claimed that ‘1 paki = 3 Indian’. Fair enough. But when in 1971 they deployed 3,70,000 soldiers then by their own calculation they were capable of defeating nearly 10,000,000 soldiers of India and since defenders have an distinct advantage most experts say nearly 3 times then they should have easily defended against as many as 30,000,000 soldiers. India fielded only 5,00,000 soldiers. By Pakistani calculations they should have won that war easy peachy. But what really happened what they collapsed like pack of cards and within 12 days Indian army won the war. We released nearly 1,00,000 pakistani soldiers free and even returned them their land in north when their govt pleaded that they will be lost to anarchy if we dont. But still they think of us as bad guys. Why not acknowledge that Bangladesh rebelled against Pak when your great paki soldiers killed over 30,000,000 bangladeshis? See Wikipedia ‘1971 Bangladesh atrocities’ for yourself.

  • Chanakya

    @Anon Yeah LOLing at F-22 vs Jf-17. Let them daydream :) They always underestimate other armies especially India. Pakistanis were involved in brutal murders of people of bangladesh and when mass killing of innocent people continued India decided to give the shelter to people fleeing from murderers. But somehow Pakistan got pissed off by this and attacked India. They claimed that ‘1 paki = 3 Indian’. Fair enough. But when in 1971 they deployed 3,70,000 soldiers then by their own calculation they were capable of defeating nearly 10,000,000 soldiers of India and since defenders have an distinct advantage most experts say nearly 3 times then they should have easily defended against as many as 30,000,000 soldiers. India fielded only 5,00,000 soldiers. By Pakistani calculations they should have won that war easy peachy. But what really happened what they collapsed like pack of cards and within 12 days Indian army won the war. We released nearly 1,00,000 pakistani soldiers free and even returned them their land in north when their govt pleaded that they will be lost to anarchy if we dont. But still they think of us as bad guys. Why not acknowledge that Bangladesh rebelled against Pak when your great paki soldiers killed over 30,000,000 bangladeshis? See Wikipedia ‘1971 Bangladesh atrocities’ for yourself.

  • Anonymous

    We had them here at Mountain Home for two weeks where we told them how to fly for Red Flag. And a couple of things happened.

    Firstly, the Tumansky engines are very suseptible to FOD (Foreign Object Damage). Now the reason thats a big deal is because they asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs. At Red Flag with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off, if you have one person who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft… yeah…. right, they can go find some other place to fly. So we trained with them, worked with them, and got them to shorten that down to 45 seconds, still not acceptable. But what we did was send these guys out first and ask them to wait for everyone else, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go up and wait for everyone else. They were very concerned about FOD and how Russian engines are not nearly as reliable as Americans. One of the things the Indians were very disapointed in, if an engine breaks down because of FOD, the Russians make them send the engine back to Russia, then you’ll send you back a new one. So its not the ideal situation for them here in the United States because they have no spare engines here.

    Youtube Video

    There’s a great video on youtube, where somebody shows the F-22 flying its demo, and the Su-30MKI, side by side, and he does the exact same demonstration, as the F-22.

    How did they Fly? There is a lot of stuff on the subject in the newspapers and magazines about this airplane. There’s a great video on youtube, where somebody shows the F-22 flying its demo, and the Su-30MK, side by side, and he does the exact same demonstration, as the F-22. And an airshow, then can do the same demonstration. The reality is, that’s about as close as the airplanes ever get. When you compare it with US airplanes; where does it stand up against the F-16 and F-15, it’s a tad bit better than we are. And that’s pretty impressive, it has better radar, more thrust, vectored thrust, longer ranged weapons, so it’s pretty impressive. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-22 Raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head – signifying that the aircraft is much better). OK, next.
    When you compare it with out airplanes, the F-16 and F-15, it’s a tad bit better than we are

  • Anonymous

    But now compare with the F-22 Raptor, the raptor is here.

    Now coming to the maneuvering. We did a lot of 1 to 1 fighting with it…. and we were very concerned, because in Cope Indias when we went over to India and fought them, they always had their best pilots. We always fought them at the ‘Indian Nellis’ and they always had their best pilots flying. We always had our operational unit based out of Kadena where the experience ratio is 80% inexperienced guys with less than 500hrs flying time and 20% experienced. The 20% were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff jobs so they really hadn’t had a lot of time flying. Anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians pounded their chests – they said we beat them more than they beat us – and that was true there.

    Now they come to Mountain Home, and the Su-30 unit that they bring was a regular operational unit – with an experience mix of about 50-50 (experienced vs inexperienced). Their experienced guys had all come off the MiG-21 Bison.. The MiG-21 bison is a pretty neat airplane. It is based on the MiG-21 as many of you guys know from the Vietnam (War) era, but upgraded with an F-16 radar built by the Israelis in the nose, active radar missile, and they carry an Israeli jammer on it would practically make them invisible to our legacy radar in the F-15 and F-16.

  • Anonymous

    Remember days in 4477th (4477 Test and Evaluation Squadron)… MiG-21 had the capability to get into the scissors with you, 110 knots, 60 degrees nose high, go from 10,000 feet to 20,000 feet, very manoeuvrable airplane, but it didn’t have any good weapons. Now it has high off bore sight Archer missile, helmet mounted sight, active missile, and a jammer that gets it into the merge, good radar, so that’s the plane the SU-30 experienced pilots came out of and they were pretty good in the engaged fight.
    Well we get them to Mountain Home and we let the operational guys fight… and then a couple of things happened. Amazingly, we dominated – not with a clean F-15 i.e. Without any wingtanks and other stores, but we dominated with an F-15 in wartime configuration i.e. 4 missiles onboard, wingtanks, and they’re sitting there in clean Su-30s except for pylons which did not have anything on it except a ACMI pod. They were amazed, matter of fact they were floored to the point after the first 3 days, they didn’t want any more 1 vs 1 stuff. Lets move on the something else (laughs). Funny ’cause in India, they wanted only 1 to 1 – cause they were winning at that.

  • Anonymous

    A quick word on the airplane. Vectored thrust. The Raptor has vectored thrust, but its two dimensional and works only in the pitch mode. When the airplane pulls, and it gets past a certain AoA (Angle of Attack), the vectored thrust kicks in and drives the airplane around. In the Su-30, instead of having it in the pitch, it has TVC in a V. It doesnt have to be in a post stall manoevering…. the TVC would kick in and push the aircraft the direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. It’s a biiig airplane. A huge airplane. So what happens is when it moves its nose around, its sinking. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles.
    What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22… From our experience, that’s the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way – this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. You would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 28 deg per second at 20,000 feet while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 21 and a sustained rate of 15-16 degrees. So you are pulling and hoping. Post stall, maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air and the airplane will rotate with its nose up. This is where the Eagle or Viper pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this, most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.

    The Su-30? No problem. Big airplane. Big cross section. Jamming to get to the merge, so you have to fight close… he has 22 – 23 degrees per second sustained turn rate. We’ve been fighting the Raptor, so we’ve been going oh dude, this is easy. So as we’re fighting him, all of a sudden you’d see the ass end kick down, going post stall – but now he starts falling from the sky. The F-15 wouldn’t even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.

  • Anonymous

    While on paper, he has vectored thrust, all these great weapons and everything, he looks the same as a Raptor, he’s nowhere near the same. So that was a really good thing for us to find out, that we really didn’t know until this last excercise. Now, what I’m scared of, is congress is going to hear that and go ‘great we don’t need to buy any more airplanes… no no no, we used to be way ahead of them, now they’re right up close to us and just a little bit higher. I say that they’re just a little bit better than us, is because when there pilots learn how to fly, they’ll be able to beat the F-16 and F-15, on a regular basis. Right now, they use TVC and just go into post stall…. so it’s only a matter of time before they learn.

    As far as the Red Flag went, we also had the French out here. The French were going to get the Mirage 2000 dash 5, one of their older airplanes, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales – their latest, advanced jet. 90% of the time, they followed the Indians in, but they never really came into the merge. Like anyone of you who has flown in Desert Storm (Iraq) and Afghanistan, they would do local flights over Bagram, Bahrain and Alseraj and say we participated, but what they were really doing is just sniffing electronically and finding out how our radars work. And that’s really all they did out here…. came out here with all the electronic receiving equipments and sucked out all the trons in the air.One thing about the IAF – they learnt their lessons very well at Mountain Home, they were extremely professional – they never flew out of the airspace which we were very concerned about. They had zero training rule violations. And that in itself was incredible. We were very impressed and thanked them so much because they were very very professional.

  • Anonymous

    Where they had problems was they killed a lot of friends. Red Flag has changed now, the first week of Red Flag is basically large force deployment and the second week is about a campaign…. where the surface to air missiles come up. What was happening was that they did not have combat I.D capability.

    The Koreans bought in their brand spankin’ new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all like on the F-22. Had Israeli targeting and jamming pods on them. Incredible airplanes. Very professional also. But they had less than 50 hours total on the F-15 it and none on the airplane, they were still learning the aircraft. So it did not have any significant impact.

    You know what was happening is that they didn’t have the datalink with the Awacs. Big internet data links. The Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, “Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?” Awacs would say “No hostile within 40 miles of you” then “Fox2.” (laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. So they had a fairly high number of fratricides. But they took the fratricides very seriously.

  • Anonymous

    So while Nellis is about training with people who we will go to war with, Red Flag Alaska: This is different from Red Flag Nellis. In Alaska we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis, so they could mix right in and be a part of the coalition, and they learned, in a big way, that, that, wouldn’t happen.

    Was the AESA radar in the Indian aircraft…? Well the Indian is PESA which is not active but passive, as opposed to AESA. Huge difference, because and actively scanned AESA pings more, and sees more, and is more accurate, than just a passively scanned radar. PESA is good but ends up having more technical problems in discriminating, and finding the right guy.

    Some guy said F-15 was last dog fighting airplane, he discounted the fact the F-22 was really terrific in the fight…? I think the Raptor is the next great dogfighter we have. Reason is, electronic jamming, and not only electronic jamming, but we don’t carry enough missiles. We’re going to have to go in with guns. Gonna happen and thank god the Raptor still has a gun on it. It’s fast, its manoeuvrable, …. and the Block 50 (and 52 EHRM P&W FTW), is pretty good dogfighter also, so these aircraft, the F-15, Block 50 F-16, and the Raptor, are still very capable aircraft, because when the Bison MiG-21 that gets in unseen with the small RCS and a big jamming pod…. going to need manoeuvrability.

  • Anonymous

    What about the F-35? Let’s save that for another discussion. We do too much work on it at this moment, but we’ll save that for another time.
    and for jf 17 costs i kno much better than all of you i guess and no one claims jf shooting f 22 f 22 is an entirely different class and chanakya if you base your knowledge on wikipedia which everyone can edit it is stupid to disscuss anithing with you rest i applaud russians and indians for the insurgency they created in 71 and then exploited it and areas in west were traded not given in charity but 71 is history and in case of a future war we ll see what will happen and it is otherwise useless to comment on this forum where people know nothing tejas has not even received full operational clearance and Iaf itself is extremely skeptical about the aircraft and people are talking mark 2 by the time mark 2 would be ready IAF would be having 5th generation fighters tejas is just a crap and that is what indian pilots say not us and there is no point in debating with people who have no knowledge and just read blogs on internet which are full of psyops controlled by intelligence agencies and paid journalists and i will not reply to any of posts the one who want to live in fool’s paradise are most welcome to remain there and the one’s who are really interested can get hold of an honest iaf pilot and ask him and for all pakistanis on this forum please donot comment on such forums your country needs u and your time is very precious because these are useless discussions when there would be actual war results would be clear and it would hardly matter what journalists write so donot read such stuff if tejas is better what can u do and if jf 17 is better then what would effect you you concentrate on your work and let us take care of IAF and inshallah when the time will come we will not disappoint our nation like the people did in 71 and if ever such situation came indians will know that we fight last bullet last breath and ofcourse our senior leadership will make use of nukes and we are not building them for decoration of course if pakistan goes there will be 60 muslim countries but rest assure that the name of india will only remain pages of history inshallah

  • Anonymous

    this forum doesot even have courage to post people’s views

  • Anonymous

    this forum doesot even have courage to post people’s views to all pakistanis there is no need to waste your time on these forums ur country needs u so dont waste time here if tejas is better u cat do anithing and if jf is better still u cant do anithing so concentrate on your work and let us take care of IAF

  • Anonymous

    while i complent russians and indians on the insurgency they created and exploited in 71 71 is history and in case of future war we will tell the indians that we fight last breath last bullet rest i guess i kno much matter what jf 17 costs and there is no need to reply to posts of people who just read blogs on internet where intelligence agencies pay journalists and is a hot ground for psyops so i wont comment any further on any post

  • Anonymous

    to all pakistanis nukes are not made for decorative purposes if there would be a war even if pakistan goes we have 60 muslim countries but rest assure the name of india will only be found in pages of history inshallah

  • Anonymous

    @Anon 08:56 Have you not heard of Indias BMD? It has 99.8% accuracy. That is to say out of 1000 nukes only 2 will reach to targets and this system is already being deployed and an even better version is being developed. And about other muslim countries.. How many of them helped you in 1971?

  • Anonymous

    @Anon 8.56am Actually Pakistan is looked down by most muslim nations for destroying reputation of Islam by using state sponsored terrorism.
    Afghanistan, Syria and UAE have always supported India and are backing India’s candidature for United Nations Security Council.

  • Polar Seal

    It would be interesting to see how these fighters (Tejas, Jf-17) stack up after their planned upgrades. Not an technical man, but I love the Tejas’ design. It reminds me of an Stingray in sea.

  • Vijay Singh

    Lets try to stay on topic. Dirt digging is not the good thing to do. This article is about two aircrafts so lets talk about those two. Anybody got an idea what type of Radar would be used in Tejas Mk-II? I heard Tejas Mk-II will use an upgraded version of Mk-I radar while some people claim that Mk-II will use an AESA radar built in collab with Israel. Its really confusing. Can anyone throw a light on matter?

  • Anonymous

    @Vijay I agree. @Everyone Kindly stay on topic. Lets discuss and share.

  • Janakram

    Yeah Aesa for Tejas Mk-II is a go. European Elta and Israeli EADS are competing for it. Both are more than capable of doing this so its looking pretty good.

  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous

    OK so I found some info on Aesa for Mk-II and heres what I understand.
    1- It is probably called ‘Project Uttam’.
    2- It will be fitted in Tejas Mk-II and perhaps will later be fitted in even older Mk-I versions. This upgrade may even stretch to Mig-29UPG.
    3- Either EADS or Elta will work on it with LRDE.
    4- An Aesa based EW suite will also be incorporated as a part of suite.
    5- In case of Elta Mayawi/IDAS EW will most probably be used.
    6- EW in case of EADS will most likely be Virgilius.
    7- AESA will be simultaneous Air-to-Air, ground and sea mode.
    8- Most likely 64 target racker.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/14104080474139223156 mihir

    Is LCA integrated into IAF as a strikefighter or a recon aircraft?

  • Anonymous

    Hey guys i got an awesome new site of Tejas having HQ pics and HD vids do make a visit
    http://www.tejas.gov.in/

    and please reply after you do so….

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/14104080474139223156 mihir

    hey nice site buddy, loads of info and really good pics.

  • Anonymous

    @Anonymous

    India should help who
    are you outta mind idiot
    There cannot be any kind of friend ship in these two countries although there would be many well wishers on both sides
    but India will have to stop producing terrorism in Pakistan

    NOW PLEASE DON”T ARGUE THAT INDIA IS INNOCENT ON EVERY THING THEY HAVE BEEN PRODUCING TERRORIST SINCE IT’S BIRTH

  • Anonymous

    ^^^^^^ and may i know who said so… or any factual info? Okay i undrstand Pakistan may be innocent; what we generally mean is that it is your government which is indirectly sponsoring terrorism and not the general public and at least this much is fact… face it.

    @mihir
    thnx for visiting the site…. do share the link with others

  • Anonymous

    Every time discussion is going on track another Paki troll like @Anon 15 july 5:06 comes and disrupts discussion. Go to Google and search ‘Epicenter Terrorism’ and see what you find. I am not naming any country. Just search and see.

  • Anonymous

    Can we use Prahar missile on Tejas or Su-30 Mki?

  • Aayush

    @Anon 11:16 While Prahar can be used on Tejas in future but right now we have Russian Kh-59 ME and Mk with 200-285 km range. Prahar if launched from air will have an much longer range (vs its current 150 km) as most fuel is consumed in takeoff phase of missiles.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03232421198921329120 sid

    its good discussion great work guys……keep going….

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03232421198921329120 sid

    @Svetlana Petrova

    nice work … great job……

  • Anonymous

    JUST MORE INDIAN PROPAGANDA. THE JF17 HAS MORE ADVANCE WEAPON’S THAN THE LCA. THE LCA IS SUCH FAILURE THAT IT HAS NOT EVEN GOT OFF THE PRODUCTION LINE, SHAME ON YOU INDIA YOU PUT YOUR SELF SO LOW ANYONE CAN TELL THAT YOU ARE DESPERATE TO SPREAD PROPAGANDA ABOUT THE JF17.

  • Vikrant Prahar

    @Anon 1:25 Writing in capital doesn’t prove anything but that you are an troll. Tejas is already being produced with 22 (16+6) already manufactured and new manufacturing facilities are being built to increase pace.
    About weapons: R-73,R-77,Python,Astra,Derby are very proven missiles and are respected throughout. Jf-17 has only on BVRAAM SD-10 of upto 70 km range while Tejas has Astra with upto 100 km and Russian R-73 with upto 160 km range.
    And finally, not only missiles are better but radar too. Jf-17 uses KLJ-7 radar with an tracking range of air targets 105 km (only 85 km in Look down mode) while Tejas has EL/2032 radar capable of tracking targets at 150 km. In naval targets Jf-17’s KLJ-7 tracks only 135 km while Tejas’ El/2032 tracks 300 km.

  • Anonymous

    @Vikrant Kudos for an well informed post. Though there is an mistake in your post. R-77 has 160 km range not R-73, but both are carried by Tejas so it doesn’t matter.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/01257508480725058953 akshay.mehra218

    listen u all pakistani idiots. lca is made up of 80 % composite material which makes it a stealt fighter and this more than 80% composite material use is only done in only f22 and lightning 35 of US.so in that area LCA is superior than all other. n please open ur eyes n read that jf17 is meant to be pakistan’s main fighter while LCA is just a support fighter still much better than JF17. main fighters of India are sukhoi 30 mki , upgraded mirage 2000V , new 126 marca eurofighter typhoon or rafale and almost ready 5th generation su pakfa . so u pakistanis think u can stand a single day against these fighters? u idiots don know that LCA has a latest delta design airframe and most advanced avionics. while ur JF 17 is made on age old mig21 airframe which russia supplied. JF 17 is jus a modification of age old design. and u pakistanis can only stealth technology, beg like beggars for funds in front of world and lick feet of china for ur survival…baap baap hota hai…zabaan sambhal ke kholo hinduatni baap ke saamne

  • akshay.mehra218

    sorry for one small mistake… LCA use 45 % composite and now that is being increased to 55 to 60 % which is still much higher than any aircraft. also forget aircrafts…pakistan’s size is that of one small state of india…so if pakistan dares to launch a nuke (which it cannot ) we have missile defence deployed and that is capable to such extent that only 2 out of 1000 nukes can hit india and that will destroy may be one small state but then pakistan can be easily wiped out of world map by just a few nukes from india as pakistan has a size of a small Indian state…u beggar pakistanis can only beg for money from USA and world and kiss ass of china which is supplying u JF17 type age old plane…china has not inducted even a single JF17 in its airforce.
    all u pakis should think before u open ur stupid mouth that whom u are talking to… we have sukhoi 30 mki whic can wipe out ur entire age old PAF in a single day and JF 17 will be target practice for sukhoi 30 mki…then we have mirage 2000-5 , mig 29 , jaguar , marca’s rafale or eurofighter and almost ready 5th generation su pakfa stealth… u pakistanis will be running hidding ur tails between ur legs… and for marca u should know the deal is signed in september and for tejas its meant to be a support aircraft not a main one… still our support LCA is far superior with ur lahore based JF17 scrap… also one more thing that it shows that pakistan is comparing its main fighter with our support aircraft still cannot match it…so u bloody pakistanis see yourself how u proved that u are so behind… u stupid head moron pakis see ur country what a shit place it is…pakistani economy is crumbling, you people beg for money in front of whole world and now u come here to speak bullshit???

  • Anonymous

    Yes, its me who spoke about weapon integration, as far as i can see whoever is trying to tell me that weapon integration is done on JF-17 knows much more then a regular aviation reader. if you are telling me PGMS have been fired without the integration of POD its really great because every air force in this world needs a POD to fire AIR to GROUND weapons.Second thing, its a surprise JF-17 already fired a Cruze missile!!! thats great for PAF then…..talk sense people. First understand the meaning of weapon integration…..offcourse cant expect much from pakistani friends out here its beyond their level of understanding i guess…..

  • Anonymous

    @Anon 1:00 Hilarious yet accurate post. Paki Air Force itself stated that targeting PODs were not implemented yet but trolls wont listen to their own damned airforce! But perhaps we are all wrong and they are guiding the bombs using mind control!
    Jokes apart, there is an distinct difference between ‘induction’ of IAF and PAF. IAF puts aircraft through bloody long testing before even giving them IOC eg before given IOC Tejas was flown for over 1450 hours. IOC will put it through test of all weapons in all weather conditions during both day/night throughout year.

  • Anonymous

    @Anon precisely the same point what you said above, i am trying to prove from all my posts, i am not biased towards LCA, but its a fact IAF wont let down its standards. Induction process for both PAF and IAF seem to vary quiet a lot.By no means JF17 is an inferior aircraft but its difficult to digest JF17 is war ready.

  • Anonymous

    @Anon 14:34 I think it has something to do with having options or rather the lack of it. India is currently being offered every fighter in world except F-22, but considering even USAF cant afford F-22 thats not a big heartbreak. Dilemma with Pakistan is that Indian economy is getting more and more ahead (10 times larger as of 2011) making it hard for them to maintain any parity. Thats why they need Jf-17 as it is relatively cheap. So there is no Choice factor here. Since it is going to be the fighter of PAF anyway they didn’t put it through weapons test and straightaway labeled it as inducted. Now India can afford to spend large dough for fighters so it can be nitpicky and put them through hell lot of tests before induction. Personally, I prefer the idea of tests. Not just because of potential fault finding but also for flight envelop improvement and real operation data.

  • Anonymous

    As of 2011 USA has total (including Bombers,fighters) of ~4300 aircrafts , Russia ~2500, China has ~1600 aircrafts, India has ~1200, North Korea has ~1100, South Korea has ~1000 Pakistan has ~600.

  • Anonymous

    @ anon 19:12 you are absolutely correct.i agree with your comment.

  • Anonymous

    I think the future of both the Aircrafts depend on trenches and blocks manufactured.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/00155227850189221802 LCA

    @Svetlana Petrova

    yes you are right if LCA has 9g than it should perform well but it has only 6g . 9g is only on papers . you can judge its turn rate . if it has 9g than it should out perform F16. but till now it cannot match the performance of JF17 .this article convey that LCA is technological superior but still cannot match the capabilities of JF17.

  • Anonymous

    @Troll at 13:05 Only people that call it 6g are Pakis who were misled by their idiotic media when someone printed 6g by subtracting negative g. Tejas really has 9g ,-3.5g. If you dont know what positive and negative g mean then I pity you.

  • Anonymous

    @13:05 Heres something for you from one of the most respected sites on aircrafts.

    http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tejas/tejas6.html

    Read that? Good. So Tejas is better physically, higher payload, more weapons, has longer range radars, longer range missiles. Data is before everyone (thx Wiki and 100s of other sites) so everyone knows which is better :)

  • Prem Chandra

    Dear sir
    I asked specifically from writer and one Russian enthusiast about the tests of LCA during May,June and July 2011 , no one has bothered to reply .
    NOW I WANT TO KNOW FROM ANY ONE OF THE READERS WHO KNOWS ANY AUTHENTIC NEWS REGARDING TESTS DURING ABOVE MENTIONED PERIODS
    WITH REGARDS

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11834732584358290953 Shiro Omiai

    Actually JF-17 is based on the cancelled model of MIG- 33, not MIG – 21

  • Anonymous

    Well…lessons from the cold war..how US won the cold war was that it OUTSPENT the russians. Its a mini cold war in the subcontinent as well and if pakistan wants fighters for fighters, nukes for nukes, missiles for missiles, AWACS for AWACS (all in absence of drying US aid)..the day is not far when economy will crumble down to pieces (if it already has not yet)

  • Anonymous

    @mihir Generally LCA is described as both interceptor & multirole fighter aircraft. But I believe LCA to be an interceptor & mainly for defensive operations replacing MIG 21’s…. Though LCA outsmarts MIG 21 as LCA is much better equpped with top avionics, Fly by wire, BVR, good radar & weapon integration….

    Apart from that LCA is not meant for attack as it’s thrust is low & could be easily destroyed by the missile (even though it has got enough self defense mechanism).

    As far as JF-17 & LCA is concerned, LCA is way ahead. no point in wasting time with JF-17… JF-17, as claimed to be an multirole fighter doesn’t fit into the role of fighter category.. Just an ordinary aircraft with a technology which is years behind.

    The main Fighter aircraft in India is is SU-30 MKI & the 2nd line defense is MIG 29 & then Mirage 2000. Whereas pak solely depends on F-16 & the back up from JF17.
    Can’t match the Indian air force especially with SU-30MKI.

    Even though people claim that PAK fighters are more skilled, it will not make big difference as JF 17 & F-16 are not quality fighters in today’s modern era.

    Unfair to comparae IAF vs PAF, as IAF is way ahead….

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/00770371235251111116 nothing

    This comment has been removed by the author.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/00770371235251111116 nothing

    This comment has been removed by the author.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/01988424837651143411 Rashid

    @Svetlana Petrova
    The G limit of JF-17 is 8.5+ while the LCA is 6 only….The angle of attack of JF-17 is much better compare to LCA because of the extended wing of thunder…Results
    360 turn time
    JF-17 20 seconds
    LCA 28 seconds

  • Abdul Moziz

    @Rashid Your ignorance is amusing. Go and read data from real websites instead of jingo forums.

  • Anonymous

    fuck JF-17

  • Anonymous

    pakistan should drop this dumbo jf 17.lca is far way ahead

  • Anonymous

    @13:01 But what else can Pakis use? Jf-17 is cheap and they cant even afford those. Even if they purchase Jf-17 in large numbers then maintenance and operating costs will be very high as cheaper aircrafts have higher cost of maintenance and go (technologically) obsolete fast. Only thing that can save Jf-17 is scrapping its 3rd gen metal frame and going for an new composite frame.

  • Anonymous

    If Pakistan says JF-17 is indigenous, then India should say SU30 MKI as indigenous!! since India and Russia jointly cooperated in making the fighter plane.

    In reality Pakistan has no answer to India’s LCA and MCA coz they just do not have any project to plan and develop a plane!!

    What are they going to do when India is going to get the MMRCA, 100’s of LCA, 100’s of PAK-FA and God-knows-how-many-number of MCA!

    They only depend on their ill-gotten Nukes. But India already working on BMD which will shield any rogue missile triggered by the misadventurous Pakistanis.

    If they create a war then God save them.

  • Rashid Mirza

    @Anonymous

    God/Allah didn’t save them back in 1971. Neither did China or USA. It only took 12 days of war and half of Pakistan was liberated from hatred and terrorism and became great nation of Bangladesh. Bangladesh actually performed better than Pakistan in ‘Failed nations list’ despite how many problems Bangladesh had to face like floods and food shortages. And I hope that our Bangladesh will be out of that list within 3-4 years.

  • Anonymous

    JF-17’s alone in large numbers combined with a good SAM system offers good air defence . It may not give you air superiority but that’s not its role. The JF-17 fits into Pakistani air defence plan very well.They are due to get J-10’s and for once Pakistanis may have numbers on their side!

  • RenditionOfGod

    @Anon 2:48 An aircraft that relies on ground based defenses is no good IMHO. Also Large number of aircraft in todays era of BVR is not effective. Oh by the time J-10 is received by Pak, which is nowhere near already inducted IAF’s Su-30, India will be flying Super Su-30, FGFA and probably MRCA. So yeah keep relying on ground SAMs!

  • Anonymous

    During the development of Teja India has announced the MMRCA competition which has been going on since in one guise or another since 2001, which was really meant as a carrot to get western technology for the Teja and India also participates with Russia over the PAKFA which the Russians say India cannot bring anything to the project accept badly needed funding. So I am not surprised that the Teja is a mishmash of western technology and Russian Stealth. Big point is made of its stealth capability – what is the point of having low radar signature if you do not have internal weapon bays? What is the radar signature with full load of weapons and fuel tanks? What is so sad is that having access to the best western and Russian technology India could only come up with Teja.

  • Anonymous

    @RenditionOfGod, 1402, What is the success rate of BVR missiles? Why is the US not building anymore F22’s and not selling them to anyone? Is there a weakness in the system? So far we have only had stealth and BVR technology used in one sided wars, I would prefer to see it used in two evenly matched sides to properly evaluate. Don’t forget plane is only one tool in the air defense box –I think some nations including Israel have devised air combat methods to defeat BVR. That’s the problem with arm chair generals discussing performance of a weapon based on its stats alone.

  • Anonymous

    Anon@16:32 F-22s are expensive as hell. No there is no major weakness but USAF operates 5000+ aircrafts so paying 350+ million for each aircraft is not possible.
    And I agree with @Renofgod things shall be compare head to head. Battlefield assessment is not limited to just Plane and Sam that would include hundreds of variables which is not what this article is about. No ‘air combat method’ beats BVR. You can try to use scramblers/chaff/flares but they fail most of the times.

  • Anonymous

    @Anon, 16:32, F-22 expensive but if capability is as stated would not require as many also off set costs by selling to close allies. Australia and others wanted them but Us refused. JF-17 v Teja is like arguing over size of chickens in two unhatched eggs. You will find JF-17 evolving all the time and no two JF17’s produced a year apart will have same spec. Is it correct Teja project going on since late 70’s?

  • Anonymous

    @Anon, 16:32, The kill probability of a typical Russian made BVR air to air missile is about 30%, the latest US version goes upto 50%. One of the reasons why Russian jets carry more BVR missiles is to fire several at a target to increase kill ratio. I am affraid BVR is not all its cracked up to be. If you want to read more see:http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html

  • Anonymous

    @Ano 21:56 F-22 is not for sale, period. Keep thinking of conspiracy theories. F-35 is being sold to friendly countries but F-22 is exclusive.
    Another thing is that Jf-17 is China’s fighter jet. Calling it Paki is like saying Su-30Mki is Indian. Tejas design study was conducted before that but Tejas program was actually started in 1990 and includes delay due to embargo. Also what difference does it make in combat?

  • Anonymous

    @Anon3:16 BVR accuracy chart you mentioned also showed that they achieve more than 80-95% kill rate at 2-3 salvo. Read your own link properly before posting.
    Oh almost forgot, the same article you posted praises the high lethality of Python 4-5 missiles and calls it future evolution. Tejas carries carries Python 4-5. :)

    Oh and Tejas radar has better tracking ranges too. 45-65 km better tracking (150 Tejas vs 85 ld-105 lu Jf-17) in Air-to-Air and 165 km better (300km tejas vs 135km jf-17) in Air-to-Sea mode. So what now? Are you going to say that Radars dont matter?

  • Anonymous

    @Anon 10:18
    They actually give a kill rate of 75% with multiple BVR rocket launches, but what ever the figure, how many BVR does Teja carry. Point was made earlier that BVR had almost 100% kill rate and was an effective weapon against superior numbers. Oh the radar, very good at letting you know that it’s time to run as you have exhausted all your BVR and 10 JF 17’s are on your tail.? Teja is basically a mirage clone and not a good one at that.It’s damn expensive and painful way of learning to build jets.

  • Anonymous

    So if the Teja is Indian built why would an embargo effect it?

  • Anonymous

    @Anon 16:05 Embargo affected as at that time Fly By Wire tech was being taken from USA. But after embargo it was developed entirely on its own by HAL. India didn’t have the luxury that China had when Russia provided China with building manuals encompassing everything for creating copycat called J-7.

  • Anonymous

    I cant find any comment that says BVRs have 100% kill rate. Also your claim of 75% salvo kill probability is wrong. R-73 has single shot kill probability of 60-70% percent against maneuvering targets. Even if we take 60% kill probability against fighters (which are harder to hit than bombers,transports etc) then two shot probability comes to 84%. If we had taken 70% probability then it comes to 91% two mis. In any case three will absolutely kill target. http://warfare.ru/?catid=262&linkid=1673

    As to your question of how much it carries well Tejas carries more missiles (8 hardpoints +1 over Jf-17), more load (+500 over Jf-17) and yeah better radar and missiles.

  • Anonymous

    See Anon 06:32-says BVR cannot be defeated-which in my understanding means once fired it destroys target which is incorrect as kill ratios varify. Wrt to former USSR helping China India too had closed relationship so what went wrong?

  • Anonymous

    As a commercial project JF-17 is more suited for developing nations because of its price tag and can be had in a variety of specs-at its very basic it does away with unnecessary technology that fails the cost benefit test.I am not sure any potential buyers for Teja other than IAF.

  • Anonymous

    IAF is itself an massive buyer. Its all production lines are choke full for next decade and despite 3 new manufacturing facilities under construction it will be busy for 6-7 years due to massive modernization and expansion drive. And finally Pakis only talk of induction date and export (though not even an single Jf-17 has been exported) when everybody knows that dont matter in air combat.

  • Anonymous

    When comparing fighter jets it is funny to see some guys quote date of induction. Its living in self-denial. Tejas has much better radar (not even counting AESA in next ver), missiles, advanced design, RCS, payload, hardpoints.
    Paki reply- Oh…. eh… Jf-17 is inducted earlier! (though it is openly known that many weapon tests are STILL peniding) Or that Jf-17 *might* be exported in future.

    Yeah in case some Jf-17s indeed get exported then get the export receipt laminated and show it to other fighter planes. I am sure even F-22 will explode on seeing it since no F-22 has ever been exported.

  • BuildMorePylons

    Vikrant said: About weapons: R-73,R-77,Python,Astra,Derby are very proven missiles and are respected throughout. Jf-17 has only on BVRAAM SD-10 of upto 70 km range while Tejas has Astra with upto 100 km and Russian R-77 with upto 160 km range.
    And finally, not only missiles are better but radar too. Jf-17 uses KLJ-7 radar with an tracking range of air targets 105 km (only 85 km in Look down mode) while Tejas has EL/2032 radar capable of tracking targets at 150 km. In naval targets Jf-17’s KLJ-7 tracks only 135 km while Tejas’ El/2032 tracks 300 km.

    Most informative comment. Thanks.

  • Anonymous

    @BuildMorePylons

    Informative, but wrong.

    Astras specs are still on paper.

    If we gonna talk about future missiles, then why not SD-10B/C or the RAMJET powered SD-10D?

    R-77 doesn’t have a 160km range – not even US AIM-120 have that range.

    SD-10 range has been stated by manufacturers to be AT LEAST 70km. But how far the missile travels depends on the speed and altitude of the plane.

  • Anonymous

    @Anon 10:27 So we should ignore range of proven missiles like R-73/77 and accept the much lower range of unproven/on paper Sd-10? SD-10 range is max 70 km. Read the chinese defense sources who clearly said Sd-10 range to be ‘Upto 70 km’ and ‘maximum possible range 70 km’. At sea level or chase mode it is less than 20 km.

  • Anonymous

    Pakistan renamed Super-7 as JF-17 Thunder in 2003 which became a real blunder in 2010 when fitted with WS Chinese high mortality Engine. With RD 93 Russian engines it is JF-17T (JF 17T – Thunder), with WS13 Chinese it is JF-17B* (B* -Blunder)
    The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. You just imagine how many thousands of holes drilled to JF17 metal Air-frame which will result in fatigue in addition to Chinese WS Engines !!

  • Anonymous

    I think Nawaz Shareef (an indian agent) is writing this article with such silly comparisons that only NS can understand!

    By the time LCA gets ready, it would be an obsolete plane, more expensive than the latest F16s and with no match in capability. JF17 is the most inexpensive plane every built, in the shortest possible time one can dream of, with versions after versions, and with capability that is ahead of the MRCA planes that indians are going to buy in future (with 90s airframes). JF 17 will be ahead even in avionics from the MRCA and already its stealth version is under development.

    NS can stand for elections in india, as Pakistan will be real happy getting rid of such illiterates.

  • Faizal

    @1:45 So former Prime-minister of Pakistan is an Indian agent? They have some really fine agents if you ask me!
    Dont fool yourself MRCA includes heavy hitters like Rafale and Typhoon. Who have been declared to be most effective after F-22.
    http://eucitizens.eu/Forum/index.php?topic=166.0

  • Anonymous

    Anon @15:47 “Pakistan renamed Super-7 as JF-17 Thunder in 2003 which became a real blunder in 2010 when fitted with WS Chinese high mortality Engine. With RD 93 Russian engines it is JF-17T (JF 17T – Thunder), with WS13 Chinese it is JF-17B* (B* -Blunder)”
    The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. You just imagine how many thousands of holes drilled to JF17 metal Air-frame which will result in fatigue in addition to Chinese WS Engines !!

    Its all metal 3rd gen chasis has made some people term it Junk Fighter-17.

  • IaFsquadron30

    See you should not look towards tejas an Indian plane but see it as your own and then compare it to the JF-17 most of the Pakistani’s are posting negative comment about the tejas because pride is getting in heir way of thinking. Then you will find out the truth

  • IaFsquadron30

    See you Pakistani’s shouldn’t look at the tejas as an Indian play but look at it as your own. Most of the Pakistanis posting negative comments about the tejas have their own pride coming in their way of thinking

  • Anonymous

    Well I have an advise for Pakistanis to look forward for development.Rather than increasing weapons thru China.India would be super power and India has stopped taking Pakistan seriously..As u grow bigger u think bigger..So make Development as religion!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/09126828423544017058 zak

    No FOC for 4.5th gen Tejas- Indian Air force Chief,when will be the final clearance take place can any one tell the reason & how people see the future of LCA Tejas , expert comment required specially swetlana.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @zak

    The clearance wouldn’t take place before 2013. LCA is all ready, the only thing remaining is the Kaveri Engine. Currently LCA is being powered by GE American engines. but they don’t give LCA the required features which Kaveri is said to give.

    Gas Turbine Research Establishment located at Bangalore, India is primarily working on Kaveri Engine. Making an engine is a tough job, very few countries have done that. According to me the development can take more than 5 years, but then that’s just my estimates. May be Indian government will be faster than that.

    Lots of discussions and interactions are going on between India and other countries, mainly France to get this done as fast as possible.

    All in All LCA is a good fighter plane. One of the best in its category. India and Russia look at it as a good support aircraft for Su-30MKI. Pakistan look at it as JF-17’s counterpart. Most of the countries are not commenting anything o it till it is not inducted completely.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/09126828423544017058 zak

    @Svetlana Petrovathanx for early reply.You mean to say that the whole delay is only because of kaveri engine , ready means that machine is battle ready ? with out FOC? I doubt that there are something more than the engine, yes you are that French collaboration is already on for jet engine manufacturing in India .

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/09126828423544017058 zak

    Thanx for early reply.You mean to say that the whole delay is only because of kaveri engine , ready means that machine is battle ready ? with out FOC? I doubt that there are something more than the engine, yes you are that French collaboration is already on for jet engine manufacturing in India.

  • Anonymous

    One correction – Both have not been fighting since their birth. Only Pakistan has been.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/18100723684963183619 Vishal B

    @Svetlana Petrova
    thanks svetlana,
    i write on these stuffs and currenly too much excited to see rafale getting selected. not euro fighter. Acording to me overall rafale is an ultimate plane and reliability of french technology is an important factor. Further rafale’s selection can give lca program a different colour. to AMCA too. Experts belive complex electronic accesories developed by DRDO made sukhoi-30’s mki version a unique fighter bomber and one of the best at present. LCA will defenately become best in light fighter’s category. No point in comparing two different categories in the form of LCA and JF-17. If u still want to compare, LCA is around 2.5 times better than JF-17.
    mail me at [email protected]

  • junaid

    Pakistan is about to induct 50 block 2 jf 17 in December 2011. It will also induct latest 150fc 20 in 2015. India was so afraid of Pakistan that it could not attack Pakistan after Mumbai attacks and remember what happened after attack on parliment when Indian army was heavily deployed on fore front but could not fire a single bullet. At that time pakistan has old f 16 and f 7 but now Pakistan air is stronger than ever it is getting stronger day by day. Jf is already performing successfully in orakzai operation and its 2 squadrons are already operational. Jf 17 is better than tejas .

  • Anonymous

    JF -17 ia half mig 29 beca 1/2 engine power, i.e, jf 17 single engine but mig 29 double engine.
    Chennai and Hyderabad are out of reach jf 17 cant reach there.

  • Anonymous

    @junaid
    Yeah keep dreaming! Every source on the internet says Indian airforce is not only vastly superior but is increasing its lead day by day. Pakistan was cut in half in 1971 and since then there has been no symmetry at all. So yeah enjoy american f-16 and hope that their drones wont target you next!

  • junaid

    Then why India was so afraid . After keeping its forces on borders for whole year it could not fire a single bullet. Remember what happened when Indian skoi jet tried to get inside Pakistan but Pakistani f 16 was quick to respond and it came into action and Indian jets were not allowed to enter Pakistani space.

  • junaid

    Reliable sources said that latest fc 20 might be coming to Pakistan in 2012. Perhaps 36 of them will be delivered in 2012 and total of tally of 150 will be completed in 2014 or 15.

  • Harish

    @junaid:

    Dear Mr.Pakistani, I know every person is someway or the other proud of his country. And I understand that you are proud that your countrymen have k1lled many innocent people during the Mumbai attacks. After all you need some or the other reason to feel proud of, nothing wrong in it. In fact I appreciate your total subm1ssion towards national1sm eventhough the methods and thinking mechanism are more inclined to the dark age and sad1sm. Perhaps this is one mentality why your country Pakistan is today famous only for 1nternational terror1sm, Su1cide bomb1ngs and clandestine military ruled state inspite of having ample natural resources.

    Coming to your point of joy, India was not “scared” during the Parliament attack case. India does not function through its military, it is controlled by the democratic government.

    I know it is difficult for a Pakistani gentleman to understand this because invariably you have a different way of functioning where the elected government is a puppet whose job is to deny all mischiefs done by their army diplomatically and to enhance foreign collaboration to get more alms in the form of Aid for use by the army. In your dear country, the PM / President does not have a clue of what its own army has planned for the immediate future for ex. the Kargil misadventure by Musharaf when he was the Army general and the Mumbai attacks, Parliament attack and much much more.

    So my dear friend, your joy of boasting that India did not fire a single bullet will probably be shared and accepted within your boundary but beyond that you are most likely to be considered an illiterate. India has restrained itself like no other country and if it wanted to inflict your country it could have done it long time back. The wise ruling of Manmohan Singh government has saved lives of millions of brain washed elements like you in your country. If you cannot appreciate the greatness of a more powerful country to avoid revenge on a country like yours (which is accepted by majority of countries globally of being a failed state / terror state) then I would suggest atleast avoid talking garbage like what you did.

    Get a job, avoid going to brain washing centres often. Talk with experts of areas where your probably could be interested other than terrorism, probably even sports will do. Be with wise thinking society and improve in life.

    Take care.

  • JANI PAKISTANI

    PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
    PAKISTAN PAYINDABAD
    Its very Good coparison But The reality is that it does,nt matter, because every MUSLIM has a super power of their ALMIGHTY ALLAH, and surly surly anyone even india cannot face that power.

    So PAKISTAN a gift of ALMIGHTY ALLAH
    Proud to be a PAKISTANI

  • Harish

    @ JANI PAKISTANI

    “Now God only should help you” is the saying when someone is in doldrums.

    Pakistan’s peoples destiny
    Is not decided by Al-Qaida or Taliban
    Its always been by the three A’s
    Allah, Army and the American.

    Among the Mighty three A’s
    America is stranded in Afghan
    Army has given up hope,
    Only Allah can now save Pakistan.

    Courtesy – Vikram G. Aarella

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11116953769769126455 Captain

    sorry to say this web site is pro India web site, as usual’s Narrow minded India say that there Aircraft is batter than JF-17 but for there kind information that JF-17 is 5th generation Aircraft and its totally Made in Pakistan and China only. India beware of Pakistan Air Force ok. one think more that both the countries use same kind of Aircraft in India name is MIG-29 and in Pakistan name is F-7 but the crashed ratio in India is more than Pakistan we fly same technology more efficiently than India. as per Geniuses book of world record India’s name come first in the record of Fighter Aircraft crashed accident.So there is no comparison between Pakistan Air Force and Indian Air Force because Pakistan Air force is much batter than IAF.

  • junaid

    Harish don’t put our words in my mouth. I have not supported Mumbai attacks. We are not failed state. In India there are many freedom movements are going on. The morale of Indian army is down. India has been involved in state terrorism in Kashmir. Maost rebals are killing Indian security officers every day. So India is failed in these areas. Please look upon your own failures before criticising others. The moral of Pakistan army and people is high.we are peace loving country but if some one wants to check our moral and courage then we are ready to respond especially to India. And despite your explainations truth is that India is afraid of Pakistan that is the reason why India has not attacked Pakistan. may Allah bless Pakistan. Ameen. You have not answered my arguments. Instead you tried to deviate the topic. And last thing we need not America but only help of Allah

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Captain
    We have tried to summarize the stats, and if the stats are going in the favour of Pakistan, it doesn’t make us Pro Pakistani, and if the stats are going in the favour of India it doesn’t make us a Pro Indian. We have already said that these two planes are not comparable as they belong to different class.

    Also, JF-17 is not a 5th generation plane, LCA is also not a 5th gen plane. F-22, F-35, Indo-Russian PAK FA are only 5th gen plane in the world. Sukhoi 30-MKI is 4.5 gen.

    Finally, Mig 29 and F-7 are not same. F-7 is the Chinese plane whereas Mig 29 is Russian plane, they have totally different make. F-7 evolved into JF-17 which you can compare with Mig 21 as shown in the pictures above, not Mig 29.

    Moreover, it is ageing Mig 21 which used to crash in India and earned the bad name recently. Mig 29 was never infamous for crashing.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    Insurgency is in India also and in Pakistan too. India may be afraid of attacking Pakistan because Pakistan has nukes and Pakistan doesn’t maintain any policy of using them as all matured nuclear powers including India maintains, which means Pakistan can attack with nuclear weapon with one single bullet fired from India. ALso, it was pressure from almost every country from the world on India to avoid attack as the world knows Pakistan will not hesitate from using any nuclear weapon on India. And if that happens world’s economy will badly affected after the collapse of India. more than 26% of the world is dependent on Indian food and more than 42% of the world is dependent on Indian services.

    Also, the insurgency in India is the voice of people. India is a democracy and India cannot stop them using its military. The only solution is dialogues which is happening but takes time. One of the major symptoms of a failed state is government killing its own people, like Sudan and Libya. Pakistan is doing the same. India never did a mass killing in Maoist affected regions.

    It’s true India has to acknowledge its failure before criticizing others. India is slow in solving its own problem, that’s all because of the corruption in their government. Also delays in government work has always been their in Indian history.

    Anyway I jumped in to Say Harish and Junaid are going off topic, though I published the comments, from next time you can take care. Thank You :)

    It’s good to hear all intellectual comment from you all people which is adding more insight.

  • junaid

    here is what experts are saying about Jf 17 capibility
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-2554.html
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-104-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-15.html
    Here Jf 17 is compared with F 16 and most people agree that it is c;ose to F 16. they count it as very good aircraft. about lca they say that its not worth mentioning

  • junaid

    here is discussions going on among israelis about jf 17 block 2 jets that matches with F 16 block 52 and has advanced radars and bvr. They consider f35 to replace their old inventory to outclass jf 17 thunder block 2. Note Pakistan is likely to induct 50 latest Block 2 jf 17 at the end of this year.
    http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=13265

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03430785442893256660 RAXXIE

    i hope India spends more in its research.. well what are the chances of India developing weapons for international market? Also what do you think about the development scope in Tejas? Can India make it equal to its other counterparts in the same category?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @RAXXIE

    India does need to spend more on R&d and should also bring private players in this industry. India has been developing weapons for international market, for example Advanced light helicopter and Brahmos Missile, many African and South American countries have shown interest in them. Chile has also confirmed its interest in purchasing Brahmos from India.

    There is a huge development scope in Tejas, Tejas is itself considered as a research program instead of a hard core fighter plane. with its Success India will produce more advanced version and MCA.

    It is difficult to say if India can make it equal to its other counterparts in the same category, but if India really aims for it then it can definitely do. As Indian scientists says LCA was never made to be on par with Sukhois. So according to the requirement of Indian airforce, LCA stands perfect.

  • Anonymous

    I made very happy after reading this page,many guys are said about these indian and pakistani fighter planes and comparison also…and kindly i said to miss svetlana petrova that you do your job beautifully as your face…hahahah…good job dear….hmmm…i think that you are in media so i wanna help you to know new info about the relation of india and russia or india and china in future..dear…please type “the prophecy of nastrodamus about india” in google…you will find new info and i think that you will make happy after reading it…have a nice day dear…good bye….Jay shree krishna and my gmail id is “[email protected]”……be happy

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13060889318570685578 Rohan

    This is a nice article and comparison is fine but seems to be based more like a rookie does.
    Anyway Lca and Jf-17 arefor sure of different lines but considering PAk India war they will come face to face as putting Jf 17 against sukhoi is too harsh on those flying tins. Lca tejas is much more advanced and its role is of interceptor wheres IAF main is sukhoi-30 mki and 126-194 mmrca (typhoon likely to be shortlisted now as reports have come)

    Also Lca is not indigenous until and unless kaveri work. And it is by no means comparable to sukhoi or likes of raptor and all and is more like sab Gripen. At its best by 2014 it will be on the lines of F-16’s.
    And lol Jf-17 is nothing like F-16s dont expect to but a 17 million dollor F-16 from china as they themselves have refused to induct JF-17 in their airforce It’s just made up to fill up numbers of paf .
    PAF still relies on F_!^s and its improved version that they have asked for from lockheed
    Though it was more kind of a research thing and Hal and DRDO is now going to produce AMCA by 2018-2020
    which is a fifth gen stealth fighter.

    Though in dogfights Lca has advantage of its size and being tailless makes it more lethal there but in high altitudes I doubt it’s perfomance. But as IAF has cleared it and even the proposed 120 planes contract have been increased to 200 for sure it is good.
    Specially after it performs great at last year aeroshow against f-16’s and f-18’s .
    It does fulfill the goal of IAF though hands crossed for AMCA now.
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KwyDxR50VIQ/TlZ449lEWwI/AAAAAAAAAO4/YxQmxjvpxVw/s1600/Advanced+Medium+Combat+Aircraft_%2528AMCA%2529_2.jpg

    Also with typhoon coming India will develop another fifth gen aircraft with eurofighter consotium as part of the deal and as today americans have offered F-35 to India lets see what holds in future.

    Thanks for everyone and i appreciate to comment on my views

  • Anonymous

    yeah!!definatly fingercrossed for AMCA n US also providing its cutting egde techno F-35 but it would have been better if they have provided raptor

  • S.A.S

    as SVET stated that india is afraid of pakistan,bcoz it can use its nukes is nt true…india signs a treaty of NO FIRST use of nukes..but pakistan dont..its bcoz pakistan has only hope of its nukes to counter india..

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/00251603194353282423 MIAN MUHAMMAD UMER RASHID

    Wekipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder
    As of 2010, with the FC-1 in direct competition with the MiG-29 in the international market, Russian aircraft manufacturers have raised concerns regarding the re-export of the FC-1’s Klimov RD-93 engines. The FC-1 is competing against the MiG-29 in an Egyptian tender for 32 fighter aircraft.[69] Mikhail Pogosyan, head of the MiG and Sukhoi design bureaus, has recommended to the Russian defence export agency Rosoboronexport that sales of RD-93 engines to China be blocked to prevent the JF-17 from competing with the MiG-29 on the international market.
    Potential customers:
    Egypt is currently discussing a deal with Pakistan to co-produce the JF-17 for the Egyptian Air Force.[106] The Azerbaijani Air Force has negotiated with China for the purchase of several dozen JF-17, worth between 16 and 18 million dollars each.[107][108] The Sudanese Air Force is also reported to be negotiating for 12 aircraft.[109] The Air Force of Zimbabwe reportedly ordered 12 JF-17 in 2004,[110] but there are no current sources that confirm payment or intent of delivery.[111][112][113] An article in 2008 reported several other countries including Bangladesh, Iran and Nigeria have been identified as potential buyers.[4][114] In early 2010 it was reported that China had been in talks with around 5 to 6 countries on the JF-17, some of whom had sent air force pilots to test-fly the fighter.
    Your comments will not effect on JF17, and about why china have not included in inventory, Every country has its own requirements, China is running on 5th generation projects,and 4.5 generations J11, j15, J10.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @MIAN MUHAMMAD UMER RASHID

    That is a brilliant information. It is a great contribution from your side to this article. Thank you very much.

    I am sure readers will love to read it.

  • Anonymous

    Hi Svetlana,
    How many years u have been india? You have striked the right chord by bringing the article have our people jump.Looks you understand us than anybody else .

    Cheers

    PRabhu

  • Harish

    @MIAN MUHAMMAD UMER RASHID

    Yesterday, a JF-17 fighter crashed in Attock, Pakistan due to technical reasons, killing the pilot.

    Refer your Pakistani websites, ex:

    http://paktribune.com/news/JF-17-Thunder-crashes-in-Attock-pilot-killed-245092.html

    http://www.thenewstribe.com/2011/11/14/jf-17-crashes-in-attock-pilot-killed/#comment-9106

    While you Pakistanis have been so critical of a Soviet era fighter Mig-21 falling down in the 21st century, what do you think this incident is? Atleast Mig-21 was sending shocks down the spine of every foe when it was at its prime. The sound and the looks of Mig-21 were simply killing during those times.

    JF-17 accordingly is in production and many countries are looking to buy it. Does a crash at this stage justify your claims about the aircraft’s competency?

    LCA Tejas, so far by God’s grace (you may call it Ameen) has not encountered a single crash even after gruelling sorties day in and day out.

    @Svetlana

    Last time I went out of context in response of Junaid’s out of context and unnecessary remarks on India. They not only provocate India, but also taunt afterwards which sometimes needs a fitting response. Hope you understand and I shall take care of the context going forward.

    Thanks for doing a great unbiased comparison, really appreciate it.

  • Anonymous

    Rohan sharma
    JF-17 is just a cheaper option of mig21 as china fly around 1000 mig21s and its copy version made in china . Sure mig21 is a good thing in air but lol it is made in china

    Take your jf-17 and all the chinese toys you wish to have we are more than happy to see more of these high fi tech in pak airforce lolz

    RIP pak

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @Anonymous

    I keep travelling, I have lived in India as well as staye din Pakistan.

    Thanks for all your love.

  • Anonymous

    Rohan Sharma
    Apart from being being a aircraft a combat craft or modern day fighter jet needed to be deployed with cuttingedge ng tech and missiles avionics all are as important aspect where LCA clearly scores though both of these fighter jets are outdated and LCA will be almost irrelevant after 2025 its just that both china and pak will be still using there outdated jets making LCA relevant.

    Good news for now is that ASTRA missile system is successfully tested with a range of 80 km and derby missiles too.

    So now IAF is going to fit em in sukhoi and in LCA and all jets.
    It is able to satisfy IAF officials with its perfomance and is considered much better than what russia france and USA operates in this range making Indian jets all the way more lethal and superior in airtoair role.

    And Brahmos with a range of 460 km is going to be a reality soon as a joint project with russia is going to be initiated now.

    and JF-17 have to face typhoon or raphale more often in case of war so this thread is irrelevant like all others

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    I have few comments pending which I am unable to publish, the reason is foul language. Please make sure you don’t keep an offensive identity name for yourself while commenting, also avoid using abusive, personal, racial and religious comments

    Thank You :)

  • Harish

    Hi Svetlana, nice to know you have lived both in India and Pakistan.

    As a foreigner in both these countries, how was your experience in both India and Pakistan. Can you tell us the plus and minus points as an outsider in these countries. Which country do you prefer to visit again.

    I know this is out of context again, but I am just eager to know the thoughts of a neutral person who stayed in India and Pakistan.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/14615055408426349392 abhijnan

    Mr abdul moiz & mian muhammad…. u use info from wikipedia ? which is an open source n anyone can edit that..
    also d fact by abdul moiz tht jf17 will hav f18 capabilities. miyan moiz stop day dreaming. tht jf17 is china made n uses copied technologies for which china is very good at just copying.u pakis did software part using c++ for jf17. do u know non aircraft in world utilizes simple programing of c++ other than ur aircrft called jf17. in India c++ is taught in 7th grade kids
    now LCA… lca uses composites and advanced delta frame and tested 9g and better weapons. d R77, derby , astra missiles on LCA r far better than any missile in pakistan’s inventory. also LCA is not our frontline fighter. where as ur jf17 is ur frontline. so do u really think it can match with our mighty sukhoi 30mki,mirage5,jaguar,mig29 fulcrum,bisons and now going to be eurofighter typhoon ??? u really think u stand a chance against these??? …

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/01257508480725058953 akshay.mehra218

    Mr abdul moiz & mian muhammad…. u use info from wikipedia ? which is an open source n anyone can edit that..
    also d fact by abdul moiz tht jf17 will hav f18 capabilities. miyan moiz stop day dreaming. tht jf17 is china made n uses copied technologies for which china is very good at just copying.u pakis did software part using c++ for jf17. do u know non aircraft in world utilizes simple programing of c++ other than ur aircrft called jf17. in India c++ is taught in 7th grade kids
    now LCA… lca uses composites and advanced delta frame and tested 9g and better weapons. d R77, derby , astra missiles on LCA r far better than any missile in pakistan’s inventory. also LCA is not our frontline fighter. where as ur jf17 is ur frontline. so do u really think it can match with our mighty sukhoi 30mki,mirage5,jaguar,mig29 fulcrum,bisons and now going to be eurofighter typhoon ??? u really think u stand a chance against these??? ..

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13754380109002121747 omer

    Pakistani made first sucessfull drone!
    now we Indians should be carefull!

  • Anonymous

    power is not to win the war but to avoid it.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/07178257014421357183 Ajay

    JF-17 is no comparison to LCA. They are aircrafts of different generations.

    India no longer considers Pakistan a threat. It is investing for defending itself against China. Himalayas can no longer be depended upon as buffer. India is hedging against China’s numbers with better quality equipment. How good the bet is a open question with no definitive answer.

    Pak’s economy and institutions have failed to mature at turn of century and any turnaround will need a generation or two to materialize. India is reasonably better off with a vibrant services sector and a fledging manufacturing sector. It is hampered by a dyfunctional and corrupt administration. China is a success story so far, but they need to decentralize and initiate political reform to sustain momemtum. India too is at risk of slowing if much needed widespread reforms continue to be postphoned.

    LCA is the result of a wishlist being considered a roadmap. LCA II is the result of expectations meeting reality. Expect LCA II to be manufactured in large numbers to face off China’s much larger Airforce in primarily defensive role.

    JF-17 like a pimped up car. May impress some ignorants, but is not the real deal and will show its colors within a minute of real test.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02080550320112471015 Yousuf.Ghori

    JF-17 uses MIG-21’s airframe for GOD’s sake be realistic even i can put a pic of LCA and MIRAGE together and say that it uses Mirage air frame and for your information JF-17 uses KLJ-70 radar the best in PAF and IAF’s inventry and the G-limit of LCA is wrong the main reason why it is not inducted by the IAF is that it is not performing as it is required in G-limit the limit ushowed above is the requirement by IAF which is yet not acheived so pls get ur data correct and also JF-17 as many made in PAKistan components like its software is written in PAkistan and PAkistan never claimed it to be an indigenous aircraft it is always said to be a joint venture between PAkistan and China

  • Zohaib Akram

    Every fighter jet undergoes critical evolution. So do JF and TEJAS. These crafts are under development and still to incorporate modern technologies. However not only the craft matters but also the Rider has significant impact in Battle.I believe both crafts will be flourished with outstanding Suits and performances as per needs of that time.Now JF-17 is included to fly with RAFALE and some other modern crafts of the worlds for the procurement into SERBIAN AIR FORCE. I think that pretty much shows edge over TEJAS. Also Participation in many World air shows depicts a influencing leap over TEJAS program readiness to fight.

  • Zohaib Akram

    @Harish
    Bro every New fighter in modern era have been crashed due to some technical reasons. Like euro fighter, Even f-22 raptor. So technical faults may evolve during intense evolution. for proof Google it.

  • Anonymous

    @Abdul Moiz I agree and I do think the author of this report is some what biased in favour of India…to be expected being a Russian, after all, it was Pakistan (with foreign help) that expelled them from Afghanistan and broke them up into many pieces….and USSR did have superior combat aircrafts, but PAF shot down 8 of them without any loss..a similarly with the case when the inferior F-86 cleared the skies of India of the superior Hunters & MiG21. Experts at the time predicted the reverse. The JF17 has a better ceiling and has turn almost that of the F16. In a mock fight by US pilots, the F16 actually took out a F 22…so the JF-17 is some thing to be reckoned with. The data in this report for the LCA is based on estimations using the Engines data..we no nothing of how it will perform when the aircraft is actually combat ready and there are no riders for it, whilst the JF-17 has many orders, even with a NATO member. In 1999, Pakistan shot down IAF MiG-21, MiG-27, Su-7 and MI-17 (All occupants killed in each aircraft) and in 2002 UAV S-ll. If IAF has better planes, lets see them next time they feel adventurous….Maybe the LCA will be better when it is finally ready for its role…till then, lets hold fire!

    Nadeem Ayub.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02799078141750155193 fuckerofpakistan

    who told u that LCA does not have g or thatUSSR was broken down due to pakistan. did all this was told to u by ur maulana from ur madarsa ? u idiots, U don have to face LCA but instead u have to face latest mirage 2000-5 , jaguars , sukhoi 30mki , mig 29 , bisons , and upcoming rafale or eurofighter typhoons. so worry abt that. sukhoi 30 mki can sit on the ground and still shoot down ur PAF junk and those chinese toys.
    now LCA , its now completed 1000 flights n approved for Indian airforce, also it has 9/-3.5 g , due to highest use of composites and small size its invisible to radars n better in all aspects. n u pakis didnt make jf17. u jus did programing of it that too in c++ which here 9th std students do. still even china has not inducted even a single jf17 as its made only to sell it to poor countries like pakistan

  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous

    I m an Indian, i got nothing but “love” for my Paki brothers n rest of da world…..Stop war n make LOVE!!

  • raj Mohammed

    Peace beatween India and Pakistan Just Love and no hate we were brothers and divided by selfish british political policies we must unity as friendly nations for self benefits and kashmir dispute by plebicite….let them decide what they want and end this topic…of hate…

  • parthu

    the moment i saw the jf17 price tag of just $15-17 million, i guessed that with this quality of construction, crashes were immenent. LCA is better-built and of higher quality.

    Here is a neutral comparison of the aircrafts’ radars’ capability -

    LCA’s Indian-Israeli EL/M-2032 Hybrid radar is definitely way better than jf-17’s chinese Nanjing-built KLJ-7. The 2032 has a detection range of 150km against the klj-7’s 105km in normal conditions, in anti-ship naval warfare, the 2032 has <300km range (i don't know klj-7's sea-borne range, if someone does, post it), this shows the indian radar is better.

    IAF also has advantage in BVR combat with its R-77 & indigenous Astra BVRAAMs, as well as in dogfights with the python-5, derby and the top-of-the-line R-73, better than any missiles in pak inventory. In the overall, the Tejas is DEFINITELY better than jf-17, no doubt.

    Svetlana, i loved your artical, eventhough being a female you know more about these things than any of us guys here…its really very amusing. your neutrality is what i love, all the best for your future articles…

    would love to hear from you
    – Parthu

  • Anonymous

    LCA-2 is a good interceptor and in the A2A role it will be a potent weapon. shaa’Allah to conclude i fear for all the young good and brave PAF Pilot’s who will attain shahada after getting into Indian air space. IAF pilots, in the end will sure pray for them and wish they have a place in Jannah and not in Jahannam.

  • Anonymous

    Tejas has been fruitfull product of Indias effort in aero space. Every technology/product has a futuristic value. Like wise ISRO was in anutshell 40 years back ,but now is a leader in space domain. Despite of embargos , red tapism and hell lot of bureacracy , Tejas will be a growth platform experiencing Exponental growth in Aero domain. Thanks- Mandy

  • Anonymous

    JF-17 is given by China to Pakistan because Pakistani PM begged China for a Aircraft. Chinese agreed to give an old design based on Mig-21 airframe (iron). The weight of the Aircraft increased greatly. They also depend Russians for RD93 Engine. IAF MiG-25 (foxbat) of Mach 3.3 speed crossed Pakistani borders in 1970s. PAF had no matching aircrafts!! Now Sukhoi PAKFA (Russia-India joint venture) crossed Pakistani border undetected Pakistani Radars. Indian Satellites constantly monitor borders. Nuclear submarine Arihant is a new addition. Gorshkov Aircraft Carrier under mobilization. Indian Su-27MKIIs had taken part in war games with USAF. F-16 were also there in War games. Friendship is the only way to remain in map.

  • Anonymous

    @petrova
    Awesome. grt job petrova.. I must appreciate.
    This is the much better forum i have ever visited so neutralised view n so much info abt the latest deployed Tejas n more important negligible use of foul languages used by readers here unlike some other forums.. Good job all Indian and paki frnds.
    Now jf-17 vs Lca Tejas. Tejas is a defensive plane and Jf-17 is a attacker plane so how can we compare these two fighter planes??
    And if u paki frnds are comparing your best plane Jf-17 with our defensive plane Tejas then god only save Paf if sukhoi comes in :)
    And above i red some paki bloggers saying JF-17 will get upgraded then it will be like this it will be more dangerous and advanced then i would just say them plz grow up India is gearing up for kaveri engine which would be used in tejas advanced versions..
    But by going the tradition of these forum. Jf-17 is good plane but is now nothing more than a scrap if u r comparing it with Su-30.. which is considered as a one of the best fighter planes. Personally i didn’t like the idea of comparing Tejas and JF-17 as both are of different functionality and genre..But yes on the basis of technology by far Tejas is winner against chinese Jf-17 fighter plane which is using technology of way back which is not good for PAF if it really wants to remain in competition with IAF.. by looking the economy and all other concerned areas I guess pakistan was left with no option but to opt for this cheap chinese combat Jf-17 plane which can give PAF some chance to stand in competition of modernising era of IAF. Jf-17 would be a big maintenance seeker too, so another headache for paki frnds.. And on the other hand by building 1st home grown technological plane Lca-Tejas which is a super defensive with some high munevarability light weight single seated 4th generation plane with some impressive design it will only help india not only by increasing the dominance of IAF but also the to achieve the future plan of making 5th generation plane Hal-Amca. whereas about Tejas i do agree that Tejas could have been more innovative would have been more better especially with it’s front end .. though Tejas is good plane but still below the international standard. but For Hindustan aeronautics TEJAS is just a beginning.
    Soon French Dassault-Rafale 4.5th generation plane would also join the IAF’s existing fleets replacing old mig 21 aged planes on which Pakistan’s Jf-17 is based..
    And with the joint venture of Indo-Russia Pak fa/fgfa 5th generation stealth plane would be deployed by 2017 and with home grown 5th generation stealth plane Hal-Amca.by 2020 or so IAF would become the only 2nd country aftr USA to have two different 5th generation stealth plane so another area where Pak would be left behind.

  • Anonymous

    Wow………… The stupid user posted fake info about JF-17’s capacities and G’s that it can take. The JF-17 is considered the worlds best jet aircraft and ties with the f-22 raptor. the indian LCA come at about 15th. Surely pakistan’s(and china’s) plane is much better overall. The vortex engine in the JF-17 allows the plane to stall land and fly at 2 km/h if at above 8000 feet.

  • LoveSvetlana

    LCA Tejas is a Bee. Its combat capabilities will make every one in close vicinity vouchful and self-contained from carrying any mis-adventure against India. On the other hand its R&D and mass manufacturing will further make India’s sweet economy a Honey and also value add to India’s over-all resume…

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/08081582350226708525 mantesh87

    Hmm….If people wish to remian in delusions…let them remain…continue good work guys….

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    We will do our best to make it unbiase if some people think it is bised in favour of India.

    And thank everyone who appreciate the work of collecting information and presenting it here.

    It is always good to interact with you all here. My love for South Asia has increased even more.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/06785766819476057424 siddhz

    Dobrry din Svelana. Kak dela?As LCA is not the main fighter for the IAF..it will definitely help in the foundation of developing future advance fighter keeping the needs of IAF in mind.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    @siddhz

    Ya Oochen Horosho, Spasibo :)

  • Indian

    @Svetlana Petrova Love you Svetlana…for your good and educative comments…

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13911159348461969711 Svetlana Petrova

    Thank you for all this love :)

  • Anonymous

    please mention about naval lca and tejas mk2

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/04442790470551362519 Shashwat Harsh

    I think that indian air force is more cool than pakistan air force.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/05116995009748422679 Fahhad Islam

    so many indians r using internet that’s why u can never beat their tejas & ofcourse u can’t beat a woman while she is crying.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/14216463837258548715 SIDHARTHA

    Well Said and well mentioned dear friend.. I think u had done a great research about the two planes ..

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03488930713664728337 jagmohan Prasad

    @Svetlana PetrovaKudos to team TWR for their impartial assessment of LCA Tejas which is a result of generous effort of indian defense scientists.LCA is equipped with state of the art technology and most advanced fighter aircraft in it’s class.

  • MA RAJPOOT

    Hum kisi se kam nai, India should need to eradicate their poverty instead of production of weapons:-P because of Aman ki Asha ;-)

  • Anonymous

    @Svetlana Petrova iwanna know more abt the jf-17& european airforce programme also the advancement programme of the jf-17

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/08240005769017962877 RedGiant

    Air wars are about pilots , skills and a predator attitude than planes. Tejas oonce fully evolved will be a piranha of the skies. Cheap,low maintenance ,light and stealthy it will always attack in swarms and prove deadly to any intruding air craft. Even the raptor will not be spared if it tries to penetrate air space.

  • Anonymous

    fuck you indians. we are better than you in every field. LCA has no ground valve but jf-17 has capability to drop bombs on indian and israeli territory. india spent whold budget on weapnory but always lose war.Cheap indians. go and manage food for those who are starving. JF-17 rocks

  • Junaid

    LOL unbiased comparison too funny. This is January 2013 . Pakistan has already inducted 50 JF 17 thunder block 2. India has only 1 LCa operational. India toooooooo slowwwwwwww. So there should be no comparison between a jet flying in the sky and has been performing well and LCA which is on papers LOOOOOOOOL

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/14018998165570879088 ahmad faraz

    no doubt pakistan is a great country.jf-17 is great cmpare to lca

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03634815405630309696 satyaranjan rout

    thats some serious misunderstanding…. i think here ur making a mockery of this forum……. cause u said Su-30 problems with a tumanski engine….. and i shud tell u that tumanski engines are used by mig-21 that accompanied with su-30……. su-30mki uses AL-31F i.e saturn 117s… so i can negate ur comments there…m i right!!

  • Anonymous

    LOL that was a good one , Madarasa daily rofl

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02178265567588128356 Navin Kumar

    @Anonymous
    Look at the language of a PIG…how gentle others speak

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/00802693156718780391 MOHIT

    LCA Tejas had proved its war time capability in IAF “Iron Fist”.Tejas Drooped LGBs and alsi fire R-77 missiles with 100% accuracy.TEJAS LSP-6 which is used and slightly redesigned for AOA and G limits,have sustain itself at 23 AOA and 8.6 g.These achievements are enough for FOC.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/05995956157796603338 Anky

    @MOHITMohit are you sure? Did they incorporate the parachute for high AOA test? And 8.6g are you sure? I thought the flight envelope of LCA will not be fully open for atleast 2 more years. Could you provide the source of this info?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/05995956157796603338 Anky

    @JunaidNot true! PAF has so far inducted 2 squadrons of JF-17 block 1 in hurry without many important features. Block 2 has not been inducted so far! Moreover, the features of block 2 are already there in Tejas Mk1.
    The reason Tejas couldn’t go into mass production is that it has an advanced customer to satisfy(IAF) which can buy just about any aircraft available in the market. IAF won’t buy until LCA is comparable to the best aircrafts available in this category.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/07828877756969035481 PR

    LCA is going to be back bone of IAF and it is remarcable aircraft. Main thing is that working on LCA give us more and more knowledge to make better and more advaned fighters. LCA once integrated complete will be inducted in IAF.
    F-16 development faced lots of problems.Also F-22 and F-35 and still facing some problems and LCA too. LCA is already incrporating lots of new technologies which we can develop it further for AMCA. Big thing is we did not copy or reverse engineer these technologies. Kaveri engin is now powrful enough to be used in LCA as of now but sooner or later it will be. But 2 of Kaveri engins with current power can power AMCA easily. Even to replace current mig 21s India might need atleas 500 to 600 of LCAs.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03495223640189684643 syed adeel

    @Harish. i am smiling when i read about the your crash analysis.

    Please keep in mind that JFT has completed 10000 hours of sorties unlike LCAs 2000 hours. and let LCA become operational then we will see its competency and crash record.

    i accept that rd93 is not as good as f414 it could be the main reasonfof crash.

    if i see the assembling example if su-30 in India, at least 4 sukhois has been crashed because of technical faults. sukhois are tested and operaitonal jets of Russia but when they are “ONLY” assembled in India, 4 aircrafts crashed. so this is your competency level that you cant even maintain a pretested and stable jet and laughing on a single crash of a newly developed JFT.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03495223640189684643 syed adeel

    i am much interested in technical information rather than proving any side wrong or right but i wana share some points about both aircrafts.

    1) this small article is not completing all the aspects and technical parameters

    2) LCA is being in development and testing phase since ~3decades (ont 14 developed and under testing) while jf17 is an operational aircraft and 50+ are in service.

    3) only IOC has been passed for the LCA which means its has 16 to 18 degree of AOA and 6Gs pull (NOT 9G) and its also estimated that after FOC (estimated to be completed in 2015 according to IAF press release) it will maximumly has 8Gs pull (Lets hope for the best but analysis projects 8G)

    4) jf 17 thunder multiple inputs from PAF like (avionics code , radar features and parameters , airframe structure, missile performance parameter) and PAF has been involved in the development and optimisation of all these things . however major work was being done in China but saying “All Chinese technology” is totally wrong statement.

    5)ws13 engine is being developed with more thrust, and once integrated , it will give better twr to JFT (currntly twr is 0.96)

    6)i cant understand how writer can say LCA is interceptor and JFT is suitable bomber. LCA has almost same TWR as JFT and lesser service ceiling with 1.6 mach (1.8 is stated but not achieved yet). so how it could be a good interceptor with this characteristics. no modern fighter like EF2000 , RAFAEL , j10 capable to do interception has delta wings with canard fins. (exclude Mirage because its not in new category and being phased out now and LCA design is very much inspired by Mirage) . SO this interceptor and bomber statement seems ambigous.

    7) LCA airframe is designed with french assistance, carbon composite wings was provided by US, kaveri is being developed and tested with Russian assistance. ISRAELI avionics are used in it. i cant understand upto what extent writer called it indigenous.

    8) DRDO is searching some radar provider to produce radar on partnership basis (ITS NOT HOME MADE RADAR)

    9) JFT introduced many new weapons to PAF like RAAD Cruise missile, h4 h2 SOW , c802A , CM400 carrier killer missile, sd10b (110 KM) A-A missile (which has greater range than any IAF missile specially r77 IAF standard missile). can any one show me what new inventory LCA is bringing in IAF ?

    10) the time LCA will be cleared for operations(with FOC in 2015) PAF will already have much better JFT in the form of block2 and from 2016 JFT block 3 will be started with far superior features.

    there are still much more technical point to share but because of time limitations i am ending my comments here. your technical counter comments are highly welcome from my side :)

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03495223640189684643 syed adeel

    @pr dear which “comparable” feature LCA MK1 has ? MK1 has to completed its weapon testing trials. not SOW or BVR has been tested yet. wo how can you say that LCA MK1 already has the features comparable to JFT block 2 ?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03495223640189684643 syed adeel

    @PR and @Anky
    now accepted that every plane faces problem in initial phases so why you people are laughin on the crash of JFT as its also new one.

    f16 , f22 , f35 . all face problem but no one take a time fo 3 decade to get developed and even after almost 3 decades, its not indigenous by any mean except some avionic code. and those techs which were supposed to be developed in 1995 , now in 2012 you are saying that they will be used in AMCA. its a big LOL statement by you. by the way which MCA you are talking about ? are you gonna make another 3o year long AMCA project ? and where that MCA will stand when you are gonna get 5th gen t50 in next 7 years ?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03495223640189684643 syed adeel

    LCA Engine US
    LCA Airframe French designed
    Avionics Indian+Israeli
    Carbon Composites US supplied
    Radar possible Israeli or some other Western Radar
    despite of having aircraft manufacturing experience and the end of 3 decades long struggle and after wasting billions on that aircraft. its better to stop making fool of your Nation by so called “Indigenous” statement. and induct some other better available aircrafts with that money which is going to be pushed in this project more.

  • Anky

    @syed adeel
    LCA has completed over 2000 hrs of incident free test-flights in the development stage only. LSP-8 is in the air and it is all set to go into series production. Now compare LSP-8 with JF-17.
    Su-27 family of aircraft have crashed in all the major operator countries. And no crash has indicated that it was because of overhaul or assembly issues.
    Indian assembled jets have much better crash record over Russian assembled jets.

  • http://www.google.com/ JanWareLelo

    LCA started in 1969 with the name Marut that failed and in 1983 it was reorganized with new name LCA and so far the progress and struggle is going on.

    Now lets analyse your analysis:(I am empresses with you style of expression)

    “LCA is mainly a research project India has carried through these years
    While India has achieved self reliance in Air Fighter technology,”

    Do you know an engine from General Electric USA will replace the failed KAVRI (indigenous indian engine).

    Do you know how desparately IAF needs it to replace their respected, old feet of MIGs?

    “In terms of development, India’s LCA offers something new to the world, new design, new weapons, new systems and, in future, a new engine.”

    I guess Lockheed Martin would also been rushing to India to find that something new and incorporate than into their F-22 and F-35.

    Let see what Nawaz Sharif said:
    I have heard it is very advanced plane, but it is not ready yet.
    I am saying you buy this plane from us, though it is not as advanced as your LCA, but it also has a glass cockpit like yours and can drop bombs for you,

    it simply means:
    On paper LCA is much advanced. But practically it is not ready to deliver.
    And because it is not ready it cannot drop bombs.
    While the JFT with simple design is ready to deliver and can drop bombs.
    It only requires a little bit comprehension.

  • Anky

    @syed adeel
    1): The article was written back in April. 2011, it’s old, but by then JF-17 had finished the development phase, so it has complete info about JF-17 atleast.

    2): The final design of LCA was completed in 1990 and full funding for developing the first prototype only started from 1993. The Technology Demonstrator TD-1 flew in 2001, since then every subsequent prototype or LSP was better than the previous one. LSP-8 is the latest and it fullfils the AF requirement, for Navy GE404 engine was not suitable so they are developing MKII for navy, having seen this AF also jumped on to a more advanced version and stopped the order of MKI at 40 aircrafts.

    JF-17 was inducted without night flying capabilities, without BVR capabilities, laser guided strike weapons were not tested. So, for all those years it was not ready for a modern combat. IAF does not follow such induction process.
    3): LSP-8 flew at supersonic speeds and at Alpha 20 only on it’s first flight. That shows the confidence of the aircrew in this platform. So far the software has limited the LSPs at Alpha 20, LSP-6 is being used to test it for Alpha 26, once the test is complete, LCAs software will be updated for it to allow Alpha 26.
    It has already pulled well over 6G, the design allows it to go upto 9G, so eventually it WILL BE achieved by FOC.
    4): I won’t debate on upto what extent JF-17 has Pakistani tech.
    5):WS13 will still be inferior to GE414.
    6): LCA mk1 is a point defense fighter. Mk2 will be used for multirole, it will match Gripen NG fighter.
    7): Even if the technology is created with the help of foreign consultants, it will still be indigenous because consultation is required only once, that creates a research & development base for the upcoming projects. All the tech infrastructure created during the long LCA program will be readily available for MK2 and AMCA.
    Eventually, India will use indigenous AESA radar, Astra BVR missiles, Sudarshan laser guided bombs, and kaveri for AMCA.
    9): In terms of detection and firing range, LCA is far ahead of JF-17. LCA’s avionics will allow it to fire any state of the art western & Russian AA missiles.
    10): Let JF-17 block 2 fly first, then we’ll compare block 2 with Tejas series productions aircrafts.

  • Anky

    @syed adeel
    I already said LCAs design phase was only completed after 1990, it’s 20 years since then and it has been improving. LSP-8 is not same as the aircraft that flew in 2001 (TD-1).
    Programming codes are updated in every 5-7 years. Are you dreaming, would they use 1990s codes? LSPs are using techs of 2005 & beyond. Second batch of series production will use techs beyond 2010.
    AMCA will come out much faster, MK2 will be a piece of cake. This is how it goes, India took a long time with Agni-I&II but then Agni-III & V came much quicker because lessons were learned and the tech was in place. Same happened with the Arjun tank, Mk2 came much faster. And it gave the best Russian tank a run for it’s money in field trials.

  • Anky

    @JanWareLelo
    When do you consider a program has started? I consider when the design has been finalized, and first sheet of metal is cut with full funding for the prototype. That happened in 1993 for Tejas. So you are entitled to have your opinion about how old Tejas program is, it doesn’t hold too much ground.
    Nawaz Sharef gave you the insides indeed (which is no secret), JF-17 is build with a very low budget with basic features to drop bombs that’s about it.
    JF-17 is for PAF and LCA is for IAF, that makes hell lot of difference.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03495223640189684643 syed adeel

    @Anky
    i have already said about flying hours. there is big difference between testing flyings and operational flyings .
    JFT also crashed in operational flying not in test flying.

    let tejas come operational then talk about it lsp-8 just got operation a week ago so its too earlier to celebrate it because still FOC is not cleared. this lap is IOC1 standard with limited 6G and 1.6 mach speed so there is still no match with JF17 which have already showed its 8.5G in various air shows .

    Indian assembled su30s NOT su27s (Correct your record). and just few years back , whole Indian made su30 fleet was grounded because of avionics integration problem.

    Indian Assembled jets has not even passed their half life yet as compared to Russian one so i don’t think that this comparison has any worth. let LCA come with Kaveri then we will talk about “Indian Assembled/Manufactured jets”

  • Anky

    @syed adeel
    You have no idea!
    FOC has nothing to do with the first batch of 20 LCA Mk1. LSP-8 can meet all the requirements of AF staff i.e. AOA 22 and 8G. LCA has been already used for firing medium range missiles and laser guided bombs. LSP-8 will be used for IOC-2 for next 2-3 months, based on IOC-2 they will produce SP-1 to SP-20. Production had started already in 2011 and SP-1 & SP-2 will be handed over to the IAF this year. During these 2 years of production LSP-7& LSP-8 along with SP-1 & 2 will be used to achieve FOC, i.e. complete weapon testing including BVR missiles (including 120km meteor missile). Based on FOC,second batch of LCA SP20-SP40 will be produced. LCA Mk2 will fly by the end of 2014. And Separately LSP-6 has been going under tests already for AOA 26 and 9G. Once this test is over, the software of LCA SPs will be updaded to raise the G limit to 9G and AOA to 26 deg.
    Just so that you know, LCA pulled 8g back in 2011 airshow. They´re not worried about the G value.

    When did I say India produce Su-27? They produce Su-30MKIs, these planes are called Su-27 family of aircrafts. Haven’t Russians crashed these also? They have crashed a Su-30Mk in an airshow. These planes are used extensively and in numbers, So, such incidences can occur.
    Out of all the 4 crashes in India, one took place due to engine fire which had sucked in a foreign object. Two occurred because of wrong placement of a fly-by-wire switch in the cockpit, the switch was out of the pilot’s view and it got accidentally turned of disabling the fly-by-wire system. So, why would India be blamed for, Irkut Corporation had designed the cockpit of MKi.
    The fleet was grounded by HAL to take the corrective measures and relocate the switch to a better position.
    7 out of the 8 pilots have survived the crash.
    I’m not sure where your information come from because whatever you say is just wrong & ridiculous. HAL is there since 1960s, HAL’s integrated jets are reaching it’s service limit. It has international contracts with many countries & international companies for making parts for jets & helicopters. Su-30Mki for example is not just an assembled jet in India, it is integrated with Indian & western avionics. Hal has contracts for supplying some of these parts to other Su-30 operators also.
    Who said LCA is coming with Kaveri? There is no such plans. India has purchased 100 GE414 with an option of 100 more. LCA Mk1 will use GE404 and Mk2 will use GE414.
    If there is any problem with HAL then it is that HAL is overloaded with work, with so many different projects going on at the same time. So now India is going to raise the FDI in defense so that more private companies can share the work, that will help HAL to fully concentrate on integration of the final products and ADA, DRDO, and other Indian & pvt companies will take care of the research, development & design work.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/14809158008518160762 Prasad

    Hi, I would love to hear from you the current reality of the IAF fleet 2013-2014, numbers and plane type. Evolution of the current/indigenous and joint venture projects. Future upgrades. Since I’m not very technically sound I would also love to hear from you how they match up against CHINA. Also would love to know the exportability of the current tejas and variant and the 5th gen Sukoi/PAK FA variants.

  • Anky

    @PrasadHello,
    IAF squadron strength is depleting no doubt Our awfully slow procurement process and corruption makes it worse. IAF was smart to predict this scenario a long time ago, so instead of relying to aircraft’s replacement programs they started a modernization program of every aircraft type in the airforce so that the effectiveness of IAF can be maintained in the coming scenario. Since, then they have done a great job in modernizing Mig 21s, Mig-27s and Jaguars. The Mig-29 & Mirage 2000 upgrade program started very late, thanks to our MOD for acting slow on the defense deals. So, in the current scenario we maintain a technological edge over PLAAF, but their numerical superiority is a cause of concern.
    We have 170+ Su-30MKIs which is better than Chinese J-11, Su 30Mkk and Su 27s. Eventually we will have 272 Su-30MKIs. We have about 150+ Jaguars (being upgraded to DarinIII standard, after which it will be better than Chinese aircrafts in this category); about 90 Mig 27; 60+ Mig 29s (being upgraded to UPG standard, after which it exceed Chinese J-10s); 50 Mirage 2000 (Being upgraded to 2000-5 mk2 standard, it is the best mirage upgrade so far); 120+ Mig21BISON (BISON has excellent record in air exercises with the US, it is quick, maneuverable and capable of carrying BVR missiles). In future we are looking forward to induct 6 squadrons(126) of MMRCA winner (Rafale so far!; deliveries of Su-30MKIs, and upgraded Mig-29s, Mirages and Jaguars is underway.
    LCA is few months away from IOC-2, production has started for the first batch of 20 LCA. We might see 2 production LCA within one year from now, after than HAL will produce 8 AC per year in the first year then 16 AC per year after than. Recently, you might have read some criticism of LCA coming from unnamed & unknown sources, these are just some morons who are working for foreign companies and some corrupt Indian officers who does not want India to cut down imports. As you know there are middle-men in every defense deals. These journalists don’t understand how bad national service they are doing by publishing such reports. Tejas is an excellent aircraft and it deserves to be in our airforce. It hits bulls eye in every weapons test & exercise. Watch the latest video of Tejas from Iron first exercise on youtube, Tejas fires a missile using helmet mounted sight. Tejas program is going good but the HALs 3rd gen assembly line was a barrier, so currently HAL has stopped working on LCA for 2-3 months, they are busy in upgrading the assembly line, after which Tejas production will go full swing. They’re planing on getting LCA Mk2 in the air by 2015, so by the time production of first 40 LCA mk1 will be complete, LCA mk2 should be ready for production. LCA Mk2 will match gripen NG although it doesn’t really have to. HAL is overloaded so AMCA is on hold right now, the whole focus is on LCA currently. Somehow I feel AMCA will be scrapped and they will go for a Tejas Mk3 a stealth version.
    No chances of Tejas exports in near future, slowly we will achieve full indigenization in Tejas production then we can hope for exports, but it is like a decade away.
    We should have our first FGFA (5th gen) prototype from Russia in 2014-15. Then HAL will start modify this aircraft as per IAFs needs. We will see a tejas like composite airframe, western avionics, and more stealth features. PAK-FA is not truly 5th gen, it is somewhere between 4.5 to 5 gen, IAF aims to turn it into a true 5th gen with it’s FGFA version. We won’t see FGFA operational before 2022. Chinese 5th gen aircraft’s operational service is also not in sight for next 5-7 years. FGFA will have good export prospects as it will be superior to PAK-FA, but I’m not sure about the terms & Conditions of the deal between India & Russia.
    I tried to sum it up all, hope that helped.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/15149431546303415782 Andra Tudor

    @Anky

    Thank you Anky for your insightful response. I am glad to have such intellectual people on the post spreading awareness.

  • mastram

    You foolish pakis. We don’t require any planes to bang you. Look at your map. It is like a banana. In 10 hours we can slice it and reach the other end. Remaining work will be done by you fools in civil-war. Very soon there will be 5-10 small nations

    • Your Name…

      U did it in 1965 and then suffered it. have u forgot?? Its not that easy as u are talking. PAF made history by shooting down ur 5 aircrafts in only one minute. Its a forum of intellectual people, not for the foolish like u.

      • Jansher

        we suffered?? how?? read some history books not published by loony army of pakis.

  • MKRao

    I think the Tejas is way ahead of J-17. Period. I think as far as induction of them is concerned. It depends on the selection parameters of these two armies. If you go by the past I think India has stiffer selection parameters as far as defense requirements is concerned. As Pakistan does not have much of a choice of selecting the best as it’s army largely lived on freebies be it F-16 or be it J-17. Like they say beggar do not have a choice. No point justifying yourself Pakistani guys we understand your predicament. So it is OK you are allowed to live in false world of your own Utopia. Sorry if truth hurts.

  • [email protected]

    indian tumhari behan ko lun* don maa ch*d k bachy , tumhari maa ki k*ss behan ch*d indian f*ck*ng you all of indians, jab war ho gi na tu tumhari army ki gh**nd mai lun* dy ga Pakistan….

    • MKRao

      Hi Ujallashahzad, Why dont you try to see if this expertise of yours works in JF17 somewhere. Dekle…. kahi tho gusega!! Pak ne dunia bhare ka chor bazari mela ke banadi is ko. Tho tere bathe aur beshami sahyed kam ajaye …:) Best of luck Despo!

    • MKRao

      Hi Ujallashahzad, Why dont you try to see if this expertise of yours works in JF17 somewhere. Dekle…. kahi tho gusega!! Pak ne dunia bhare ka chor bazari mila ke banadi is ko. Tho tere bathe aur besharmi sahyed kam ajaye …:) Best of luck Despo!

    • http://www.theworldreporter.com Svetlana Petrova

      Please avoid using abusive language in comments!

  • shashi

    LCA is indian airforce’s optional jet, while jf 17 is pak’s main craft.indian airforce dassault rafale and sukhoi are like big brother of tejas and gonna f*ck the pakistani air force

  • SK

    what all of pak is calling their home production is actually made in JV with china…that we have already done in case of SU’s ..But LCA is completely our production(apart from engine n some other small stuff)..understand guys..we have taken a first step to make jets from completely our own knowledge..we can further build on it.

  • SK

    Understand this..why America or Russia is able to produce innovative jets which lesser nations aren’t even able to imagine..coz they have learnt the basic of making jets..they will keep on building on it as per their requirement…similarly this project has given us initial thrust..we will keep on building and polishing it further..so your comparison completely wrong..compare FC-17 with SU30..and LCA with a jet which you call as ur own

  • NPK

    i want a comparision where the author should not be IndIAn nor he is a PAK>>.a common 3rd party should speak